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0:00:00 Intro
0:00:00 Even if it was out of our control and
we had to just walk away and we didn't
0:00:03 have time to, to land the plane softly.
0:00:07 I think that's the wonderful thing
about Muse and its architecture is
0:00:11 everyone still would have been able
to use Muse and still would have
0:00:14 had access to all of their data and
everything still would have worked.
0:00:17 Even if the sync engine had gone
offline, it wouldn't have been ideal,
0:00:22 but that's the wonderful thing about
local-first in the architecture we
0:00:26 chose is the The kind of the worst
case was actually still pretty good.
0:00:34 Welcome to the localfirst.fm podcast.
0:00:36 I'm your host, Johannes Schickling,
and I'm a web developer, a
0:00:39 startup founder, and love the
craft of software engineering.
0:00:42 For the past few years, I've been on a
journey to build a modern, high quality
0:00:46 music app using web technologies.
0:00:48 And in doing so, I've been falling down
the rabbit hole of local-first software.
0:00:53 This podcast is your invitation
to join me on that journey.
0:00:56 In this episode, I'm
speaking to Adam Wulf.
0:00:59 The engineer and solopreneur
behind Muse, a local-first
0:01:04 canvas based tool for thought.
0:01:06 In this conversation, we talk about
the evolution of Muse as a product,
0:01:10 company, and the people who made it,
reflecting on the joys and struggles
0:01:15 of building software as a team of one.
0:01:17 Later, we're diving deep into
topics such as analytics and
0:01:20 distribution of a local-first app.
0:01:23 Before getting started, also a big
thank you to Convex and Electric
0:01:27 SQL for supporting this podcast.
0:01:30 And now my interview with Adam.
0:01:33 Hey Adam, so nice to have you on the show.
0:01:35 How are you doing?
0:01:36 Johannes, really good.
0:01:38 thanks for having me.
0:01:39 I'm thrilled to be here, frankly.
0:01:41 I had you on the backlog list for this
podcast for a long, long, long time.
0:01:46 And frankly, without you and another Adam
Wiggins and Mark from the co founding team
0:01:52 of Muse, this podcast probably wouldn't
exist because the MetaMuse podcast
0:01:57 has been a huge inspiration for me.
0:01:59 I've learned so much about it.
0:02:01 I'm still a bit bummed.
0:02:02 That is currently on pause.
0:02:05 Hopefully it's coming back at
some point, but I wanted to dig
0:02:09 deeper into all things local-first.
0:02:10 This is why I've started this podcast
roughly a year ago, and now I'm super,
0:02:15 super excited to welcome you and the show.
0:02:17 So for those who are listening,
who don't know who you are, would
0:02:21 you mind giving a background?
0:02:24 Yeah, I'm Adam Wolf.
0:02:25 one of the early members of the Muse team.
0:02:28 I think number five, it was Adam
and Mark, Julia and Lennart.
0:02:32 And then I came on board,
almost five years ago now, gosh.
0:02:36 so it's been quite, quite
a long journey, with Muse.
0:02:39 And then of course, I've been
solo for a bit over a year now.
0:02:42 We can, we can get into all those
details, but I've been a developer,
0:02:47 an entrepreneur my entire career.
0:02:49 So.
0:02:50 Early in my career, I started on the
web, co founded a web calendar startup,
0:02:55 right before Google Calendar launched.
0:02:58 And then, worked in enterprise software
for a while, lived in Portland, Oregon,
0:03:05 which I loved, the Pacific Northwest,
in the States is absolutely beautiful.
0:03:10 after that adventure, moved
back to Texas, worked with
0:03:13 Flexbits for quite a long time.
0:03:15 I don't know if many of your
listeners use, Fantastical, but it's
0:03:19 a wonderful calendar app on the Mac.
0:03:21 So I worked with them for,
I think, five or six years.
0:03:26 which was wonderful until Muse and
then, jumped in on the Muse train
0:03:30 and have been here ever since and
I've, yeah, I've been loving it.
0:03:34 Yeah, boy, I mean, already 5 years.
0:03:36 I remember when I was sitting down
with Adam Wiggins and he's been telling
0:03:41 me about this idea for, for Muse and
he showed me some first prototypes
0:03:45 and, I was blown away by, like, We're
just coming along at this point.
0:03:51 And I think there wasn't
really, there wasn't really
0:03:53 the killer app for iPads yet.
0:03:56 And, I remember how, like almost
obsessed Adam was at this point with
0:04:01 like, just trying to like use the pen.
0:04:03 And I was like aware of the existence of
the iPad pen, but for the metum for the.
0:04:09 The Muse app, this is where
it really clicked for me.
0:04:11 Oh, like this meeting, this,
this makes so much sense.
0:04:14 And, yeah, that was five years ago.
0:04:17 And since then Muse has gone
through quite the journey.
0:04:21 So, without going too much into it myself,
maybe you want to walk us through, what
0:04:30 The evolution of Muse
0:04:30 Yeah.
0:04:31 Yeah.
0:04:32 so Muse is now on version
three, I think in some ways.
0:04:36 You could chop it up into
Muse 1, Muse 2 and Muse 3.
0:04:40 Muse 1 was, iPad only.
0:04:44 It was, local-first in a very direct
way because there was no sync at all.
0:04:51 All of your data just lived
on the iPad and that was it.
0:04:54 so it was just you and your
iPad and your local data.
0:04:57 It was just a private thinking space.
0:05:00 Muse 2, we spent a lot of time building
the sync engine, which it still runs on.
0:05:06 And then that brought in Muse for Mac
and still with the local-first roots.
0:05:13 So all of the data lives on the Mac,
all of the data lives on the iPad.
0:05:16 And then our Sync server, helps
keep those in in track together.
0:05:20 And then Muse three, which we launched,
in late 2024, was collaboration.
0:05:29 And so still local-first, but now not only
could you sync with all your devices, but
0:05:33 you could start sharing and collaborating
with other people in real time as well.
0:05:38 And so those are the big pieces.
0:05:41 since I live in the code, I often think
of the chapters of Muse in that way.
0:05:46 Like, how did the code
change over those chapters?
0:05:49 That's not the only thing
that changed really, right?
0:05:52 There's also like the
people behind the code.
0:05:54 Yes, exactly right.
0:05:55 What are the chapters there?
0:05:57 Exactly right.
0:05:58 so I believe the very
first chapter predated me.
0:06:01 It was Mark.
0:06:03 Adam and Julia were the three founding
members at Ink & Switch, and it
0:06:09 started there as a research project.
0:06:13 And then after they decided,
Hey, I think this has legs.
0:06:16 Let's try and productize this.
0:06:18 Let's pull this out and really
make a go for it is when Lennart
0:06:22 joined the team, as the designer.
0:06:25 And so he came in, it
was the four of them.
0:06:29 I want to say Lennart was
there maybe three to six months
0:06:32 before they reached out to me.
0:06:35 Might've been there a bit longer.
0:06:37 I came in, gosh, 2020.
0:06:40 everyone remembers that
year and nobody wants to.
0:06:43 so it was, it was right as the
lockdowns were starting, right.
0:06:46 As everything was, was going on.
0:06:49 it was funny.
0:06:49 I've, I've worked remotely for gosh,
15 years now, something like that.
0:06:55 And so, Of course, everything
changed in 2020, but, working
0:07:01 remotely for an all remote team
was a very natural thing for me.
0:07:05 And so, it was a wonderful, distraction
from the current events, of course,
0:07:11 but it was just a wonderful team and
a wonderful way to work after that.
0:07:14 We brought in a couple new folks.
0:07:18 Linda came in and Henry came in, Linda
came in as a storyteller, to really
0:07:24 help Adam, especially on the, the
marketing side, kind of the web content
0:07:29 side, she did lots for the website
and helping tell the story of Muse and
0:07:36 bring the story of Muse to more people.
0:07:38 She did a lot on the, with the video and
with YouTube and, really great work there.
0:07:43 That was.
0:07:44 essential, I think, for Muse.
0:07:46 And then Henry came on at an important
time, building the, the Go server, which
0:07:52 is the backbone of the sync engine.
0:07:55 So he and Mark really carried
the load on the server.
0:08:00 Building that
0:08:01 and I think it's worth noting that at
that point, Muse, unlike the way how it
0:08:07 operates today, at this point, it was
really more like a traditional startup
0:08:12 where, they, they brought in venture
funding to build up that team and to
0:08:17 get this off the ground before there was
a product that had revenue, et cetera.
0:08:21 So that was the foundation
that this was even possible to
0:08:25 bring on all of those people.
0:08:26 Right.
0:08:27 Yes, that's right.
0:08:28 Yeah.
0:08:28 I think I'm trying to remember.
0:08:30 I don't remember the numbers.
0:08:31 So don't ask me how much, how much we
raised, but we did raise from, quite a few
0:08:35 angels, Adam and Mark, at the beginning,
brought in a significant portion.
0:08:41 I think even by the end, they
were the primary investors.
0:08:45 But it was that investment money that
let us grow that team and, build from,
0:08:51 from scratch, which is gosh, one of
the hardest things about building any
0:08:54 new software product is either you
don't have any investment and then
0:09:00 it's just you working alone in your
garage, trying as hard as you can,
0:09:04 going as fast as you can, which is often
0:09:06 what I'm doing right now.
0:09:07 Not necessarily in a
garage, but still, yeah,
0:09:09 yeah, exactly.
0:09:10 I think lots of people do that.
0:09:11 I've done that quite a
few times in my career.
0:09:14 And, A lot can come from it, but of
course, your, your velocity, you know,
0:09:19 the speed at which you can develop
is constraint with time and money.
0:09:24 and so having, having those
investors early on was a huge
0:09:27 help to be able to grow the team
and get that vision out there.
0:09:30 Of Muse within those first few years
0:09:34 and to kind of foreshadow already
the next second big chapter in Muse's
0:09:39 history at some point, Muse, the
founding team, et cetera, including
0:09:45 you made some pretty big changes.
0:09:48 So tell me more about that.
0:09:51 So it was, mid to late 2023, I
think actually this whole time,
0:09:56 as I've been talking, I've.
0:09:57 I've had my years backwards.
0:09:59 So it's 2023 when this is happening.
0:10:01 Not 2024.
0:10:03 2024 was, after all of this,
it was mid to late 2023.
0:10:06 We realized, this is not
able to sustain the team.
0:10:11 And so what are we going to do?
0:10:14 there's a couple of different options.
0:10:16 the obvious one is.
0:10:19 Peace out.
0:10:20 We enjoyed it.
0:10:21 The whole thing shuts down and the lights
turn off and good luck to everybody.
0:10:27 We, we didn't want to do that.
0:10:29 we know we love the app.
0:10:31 We'd love to be able to continue using
it, even if we just had to use it offline.
0:10:34 But we wanted to at least a graceful
way for all of the existing users
0:10:39 to either continue using the app.
0:10:42 And at the very least,
like table stakes was.
0:10:46 Muse is local-first, the entire purpose
and premise is, is having local access
0:10:53 to your data and protecting your data.
0:10:55 And we want to make sure that
that continues regardless of what
0:10:58 happens to the app on the App
Store and all the other things.
0:11:01 How can we make sure that,
people still have all of the
0:11:04 wonderful work that they've put in
0:11:07 exactly and to just, draw like one
bridge to, last year's Local-First Conf,
0:11:12 where Martin Klepman gave the keynote.
0:11:14 I'm not sure whether
you've seen the keynote.
0:11:17 and I highly recommend anyone
who's listening to check it
0:11:20 out if they didn't see it.
0:11:21 But he was pointing to one aspect
of local-first, which he calls,
0:11:26 our incredible journey proof.
0:11:29 So since for a lot of ambitious startups,
at some point, the lights go out and
0:11:34 there's a last block post that comes
along with it, which is our incredible
0:11:38 journey, either being acquired by company
X and the product gets shut down or
0:11:42 product just gets shut down like that.
0:11:45 And.
0:11:46 Martin framed it as such that local-first
apps should be in our incredible journey
0:11:51 proof, which is a very nice way to put it.
0:11:54 And I think that's exactly the
bar that you've just meant that
0:11:58 you've motivated that you want
to hold yourself accountable to.
0:12:02 The worst case scenario is still pretty good.
0:12:02 Exactly, exactly.
0:12:03 And I think even if, you know.
0:12:06 Even if it was out of our control and
we had to just walk away and we didn't
0:12:10 have time to, to land the plane softly.
0:12:13 I think that's the wonderful thing
about Muse and its architecture is
0:12:17 everyone still would have been able
to use Muse and still would have
0:12:21 had access to all of their data and
everything still would have worked.
0:12:24 Even if the sync engine had gone
offline, it wouldn't have been ideal,
0:12:28 but that's the wonderful thing about
local-first in the architecture we
0:12:32 chose is the The kind of the worst
case was actually still pretty good.
0:12:40 The worst case was
actually still pretty good.
0:12:41 And it was way better than kind of the
usual, startup company that disappears.
0:12:48 But we really talked about, okay, how,
how can we actually do even better?
0:12:50 How can we land this plane softly?
0:12:52 How can we make sure that
everyone gets the data they need?
0:12:55 We could, spend the last few months
building export tools and integration
0:13:00 tools to help people get their data out.
0:13:02 Before the server shuts down.
0:13:05 and I offered and said,
I'm entrepreneurial.
0:13:09 I've done this sort of thing a lot.
0:13:11 I know we haven't been able to build
legs enough to carry the whole team,
0:13:15 but I think that as a single person,
I can keep this alive and I can
0:13:20 keep this, I can keep carrying that
torch and keep carrying that dream.
0:13:24 so I put, I put my name in the hat.
0:13:26 We.
0:13:27 kept looking, we looked, we talked
with, some potential acquirers.
0:13:31 We talked with, of course, Ink & Switch.
0:13:33 we tried lots of different things.
0:13:36 Adam Wiggins has a blog post that really
talks through, the whole story of Muse
0:13:43 and especially that last chapter of Muse.
0:13:45 So if people haven't read that, you
can look, find that on his website too.
0:13:49 and so, the team talked and.
0:13:52 That's what we decided to do.
0:13:53 We decided to say, hey, if there's
a chance that we can keep this thing
0:13:55 alive, then yeah, let's, let's find a
way to, to be able to hand it over to,
0:14:02 to me, to try and keep carrying forward.
0:14:04 And so, the official transition date.
0:14:08 was early October 2023.
0:14:11 I got the year right this time.
0:14:13 So, yeah, about 15, 16 months ago.
0:14:16 So it's been, it's been a long time
and I was thinking just recently,
0:14:19 like, oh, my gosh, I cannot believe
it's been over a year already.
0:14:23 but yeah, I've been, it went
from a team of 7 to a team of.
0:14:27 Just me, that, that early October
and, that was a transition.
0:14:33 I can tell you that.
0:14:34 That was, it was, it was rough
for all sorts of reasons.
0:14:39 I think it's super fascinating because
this has given Muse a second life
0:14:45 and a second life that, I really
haven't heard of other startups,
0:14:50 products, et cetera, who've.
0:14:53 been on a similar path.
0:14:55 I thought about it in a way where
the initial joint team effort, the
0:15:00 investment resources, et cetera, has
kind of gotten Muse into escape velocity
0:15:07 and on some sort of, trajectory.
0:15:10 That now, that you're out in outer
space where you need less resources
0:15:15 to just keep, keep on the path.
0:15:18 now you can keep going by yourself.
0:15:20 That's obviously not something
that can be easily repeated
0:15:23 since typically the intention of
investment is to make a big multiple.
0:15:29 And I think that might be no longer
the assumed path for yourself.
0:15:33 So, I think you're now in a
much more sustainable path.
0:15:36 So, in a way that gave
you a unique opportunity.
0:15:40 So, I'm, I'm curious, what were the
most surprising things for you over the
0:15:47 Life as a Solopreneur
0:15:47 Man, so many things.
0:15:49 It has been, such a wonderful year
and such an incredibly tough year.
0:15:53 And I think there's so many things
throughout the entire five years
0:15:58 that I can look at and really enjoy.
0:16:01 And the older I get, the more I realize
that You know, life has chapters and
0:16:06 that there are moments in time and then
those, you know, enjoy them or you don't.
0:16:09 And then the moment is gone.
0:16:11 And so I, I look back and, the early
years with the team was amazing.
0:16:18 the Muse team by far has been the best
group of folks I've ever worked with.
0:16:22 just an incredible team in terms
of just the people, but also the
0:16:27 interesting technical, problems
that we all over came together and,
0:16:32 Transitioning from that very supportive
team, and just very efficient team.
0:16:38 We worked, we worked really well together.
0:16:40 we made decisions well together
and we moved forward together.
0:16:43 Well, to suddenly be solo was, it
was a tough transition And, kind of
0:16:50 to use that metaphor where, because
it's local-first, and because we're
0:16:56 You know, a small scrappy team.
0:16:58 We're not, you know, professional
house builders that build
0:17:02 neighborhoods every week.
0:17:04 Like, we're a bespoke house builder.
0:17:06 And so then, we've built this
wonderful house, and then
0:17:10 the rest of the team leaves.
0:17:12 And, I suddenly have to find out, like,
huh, why, why is that pipe knocking?
0:17:17 Or, oh, there's this weird leak over here.
0:17:19 Or, huh, yeah, I forgot.
0:17:21 I do need to vacuum this room once a week.
0:17:23 Or, you know, like, I I don't know
where the metaphor ends, but you see
0:17:26 where I'm going there's, it used to
be able to be maintained and, and held
0:17:31 up by the team of seven that we were.
0:17:34 And then suddenly to be holding it
all by myself, because this happened
0:17:38 right at the time we launched Muse 3.
0:17:41 So right as collaboration
changed, that came with a pretty
0:17:46 sizable database migration.
0:17:48 For users where the local corpus,
the local database they had on
0:17:55 their devices needed to be migrated
as well as their synced data on
0:18:00 the server needs to be migrated.
0:18:01 So there are lots of new moving parts
and any big new release comes with.
0:18:07 You know, exciting new bugs.
0:18:10 that, that was by far the, one of the
hardest transitions ever was, everyone
0:18:16 packed it up really nicely and handed me
the box and said, good luck out there.
0:18:20 but then suddenly to be standing there
holding the box with all the stuff and
0:18:24 realizing, okay, like, I've got to do
this, you know, I've got to hold on.
0:18:29 And so it was, it was a big
transition those first few months.
0:18:32 Lots of support tickets, lots of code,
lots of bug fixes and all the usual
0:18:37 suspects, in terms of a big new release,
none of the bugs were huge or terrible.
0:18:42 It was just lots of little bitty things
0:18:44 and typically Just after launch, this
is where you have increased everything.
0:18:49 Like you have increased bugs, bug reports.
0:18:52 You have increased messages that you
need to respond to increased public
0:18:58 things that you need to comment
on, like make sure to leverage the
0:19:03 positive buzz, et cetera, respond
to more critical things, et cetera.
0:19:07 And that would have been hard enough.
0:19:09 To pull off, with, the full house, but
now you've got to take on like all of
0:19:14 those increased, issues by yourself.
0:19:17 So hats off to, to having,
obviously having gone through that.
0:19:21 Yeah.
0:19:22 Yeah.
0:19:22 Thanks.
0:19:22 And, I mean, hats off to the team as
well for, for helping that transition
0:19:27 because every single one of them knew
that this was the process, you know, that
0:19:31 last month, that last two months and.
0:19:35 Everyone put in a tremendous amount of
work to help that transition go smoothly.
0:19:39 And so I owe, so much to their
work through that transition.
0:19:46 to make that possible.
0:19:47 I mean, it was huge.
0:19:48 It couldn't have been
done literally by just me.
0:19:50 It was the team that helped
that transition go through and.
0:19:55 Yeah, it was, but it was a, yeah, it
was a tough spot because of course,
0:19:58 there's a huge, a huge blog announcement
of "Muse is closing", but not really.
0:20:03 We're not closing.
0:20:04 By the way, here's a giant new release.
0:20:06 By the way, here's a bunch of new
press and here's a bunch of new
0:20:09 users and feedback and questions
and all that kind of stuff.
0:20:12 And so, yeah, it was.
0:20:13 It was a lot to, reply to all of those
things and fix the bugs and try and
0:20:20 prioritize as, as best as I could.
0:20:22 So, like you say that that's a, that was
a long and big transition, but I think
0:20:28 now you seem to have made it quite cozy
for yourself in that, new old house.
0:20:34 so how did you go about just making
things sustainable for yourself where
0:20:39 I think you just need to Come to grips
to like a new kind of pace and cadence
0:20:44 for what is a realistic roadmap?
0:20:46 How do you slice and dice your week into,
this is the time I allocate to support.
0:20:52 This is the time I allocate to marketing.
0:20:55 This time I allocate to bugs.
0:20:58 sometimes just unexpected things
happen and you might be suddenly
0:21:03 facing a bug that is really critical.
0:21:06 But might be like of the
shape of three weeks.
0:21:09 how did you handle those
sort of situations?
0:21:12 Yeah, I think, I think the biggest change
was as a team, we were fighting for scale.
0:21:21 And so the biggest thing that we needed
to do was find large numbers of people.
0:21:28 That fit Muse, so that we could
grow revenue dramatically.
0:21:32 So that means the kinds of things
that we're focused on are broadly
0:21:37 speaking, of course, new outreach,
new features, of course, we said like
0:21:42 the majority of 2023 was focused on
teams and that was in collaboration.
0:21:48 And that was because that gave us
an entirely new customer segment.
0:21:51 That we could potentially go after
everything has trade offs and so in,
0:21:57 in reaching for those new, customer
segments, we're building new features,
0:22:02 which necessarily means that time spent
on bug fixes or small improvements or
0:22:10 small tweaks, things like that, are
second place to the big new features
0:22:16 because the big new features bring in.
0:22:18 A bigger quantity of new people than
the incremental smaller fixes would.
0:22:25 That I think is the biggest thing that
has changed because then going solo, I
0:22:30 don't, I don't have the resources to try
and reach for enormous new audiences.
0:22:36 The most important thing to me going
solo is, okay, I built this house.
0:22:41 Let me make sure everyone's
happy living here.
0:22:43 Let me make sure all of the
current customers are happy.
0:22:46 the.
0:22:47 Kind of professional user, the
solo user who kind of thinks
0:22:52 privately and deep thinks in Muse.
0:22:55 That's their, their cozy place to
kind of retreat to and think through.
0:23:00 That's my core customer.
0:23:01 I don't need to expand beyond that.
0:23:04 And so the big shift was, then focusing
on, okay, let me take every time a
0:23:11 support ticket comes in, that's a
priority because as a single person,
0:23:17 I don't have near as much time.
0:23:19 To handle support tickets.
0:23:21 What was a very low percentage of support
time for seven people became a very
0:23:26 high percentage for one person, right?
0:23:29 And so, so as a single person, I
can't, I just can't dedicate that
0:23:33 much time to support, which means
I needed to prioritize all of those
0:23:39 little things that people would.
0:23:42 email in about, man, I can't even think of
them now, but you know, just small little
0:23:46 like, huh, isn't it weird that when I tap
over here, this other thing lights up.
0:23:50 Can we just not have that happen?
0:23:51 And that's been a bug that's been there
for three or four years, but kind of
0:23:55 doesn't matter because it's just a
little thing and people work around it.
0:23:58 But.
0:23:59 When it's a, you know, a little burr on
the edge, when it's, when it's just a
0:24:02 little rough area that kind of collects
support tickets, that's what I focused
0:24:08 my attention on those first few months
was, okay, how can I smooth out all of
0:24:11 these edges that we had known about,
but we're never the priority of the
0:24:18 team because as a team, we were focused
on the bigger sustainability question.
0:24:24 And now that that big sustainability
question had essentially been answered,
0:24:28 that's what I needed to focus on
was all of the small little tasks.
0:24:31 And so, you know, card alignment was one.
0:24:34 And so now there's a little
keyboard command to just, shift
0:24:37 cards and into card alignment.
0:24:39 Um, a few.
0:24:41 You know, small little bugs with selection
or with the way of the cards worked or,
0:24:46 one that, that I, put out, I don't know,
relatively recently was, links to apps,
0:24:52 app links, as opposed to web links.
0:24:54 So there's a handful of other apps that
quite a few folks use with Muse that have.
0:25:00 Local app links, and they'd like to be
able to drag those in and create cards.
0:25:03 And so smoothing out the URL card, the
link card flow in Muse to better support,
0:25:08 various things, things like that, right?
0:25:09 Like it's taken individually, no one would
notice them, but then taken collectively,
0:25:14 it actually makes a significant impact
on the support load, which then frees
0:25:18 up a bunch of time to say, okay, now,
now what do I want to think about?
0:25:21 What's the next big step,
0:25:23 but that makes so much sense to me.
0:25:25 And just to reflect on this also
a little bit in regards to, to my
0:25:29 personal journey, working on Overtone
and working on, on Livestore.
0:25:34 I also didn't have the luxury
to work on all of this, kind of
0:25:37 in parallel with, distributing
the work across an entire team.
0:25:42 I think of myself as single threaded.
0:25:44 I need to work on things sequentially.
0:25:47 And the longer I'm working on one thing,
the more I'm starving another thing.
0:25:51 So I need to be like very, very
careful of what I'm putting my
0:25:55 effort on and what I'm taking on.
0:25:57 And, also, if.
0:26:00 What I'm working on, if my attention
is sort of like a bucket, if there's
0:26:04 like, if there are holes in it, and
every time I'm trying to do something,
0:26:08 but it's constantly dragging me down,
I need to plug those holes first, since
0:26:12 it's not just hurting maybe someone else
who has a bad time using this, but I'm
0:26:16 also having a bad time and one thing
I've really noticed about myself is
0:26:20 like, I really need to, prioritize for
my own velocity and my own happiness.
0:26:26 Working on this only with that, I can
build momentum and keep the energy up
0:26:30 since I think that's probably also,
something that, you've experienced
0:26:35 going from a team to working solo.
0:26:37 Like a team provides sure, like, sometimes
a team can be, there can be some things
0:26:43 that, take energy away from you, but a
good team and you had a fabulous team.
0:26:48 Gives you so much energy and now
you need to, be sort of like on
0:26:52 subsistence, economy for like, you
need to, make sure that you bring
0:26:57 in your own energy and anything that
erodes that energy is so critical.
0:27:02 So, yeah, I have a huge amount of
admiration for like, how you've been
0:27:07 able to, to go, and what you've been
mentioning in terms of maybe you didn't
0:27:11 for the longer time work on some bigger
parts, but just making all of those,
0:27:17 you already had a big part done in
the past as the foundation of Muse.
0:27:21 And now working on like making everything
smooth, ironing out the little kinks.
0:27:27 And I think that's the best case
scenario for Muse users because
0:27:32 now things are getting better.
0:27:33 It's already in a shape that as a
Muse user, that's what I wanted.
0:27:37 And, I think also one of the
biggest, question marks of like,
0:27:41 is this app going to go away
long term has also been answered.
0:27:45 So I think Muse, as long as
it's sustainable for you, I
0:27:48 think it's a fantastic outcome
for, a product like Muse.
0:27:53 So I'm, I'm very happy about that.
0:27:55 Business and personal sustainability
0:27:55 Yeah, exactly.
0:27:56 I think you've summed it up perfectly.
0:27:57 it's as much about.
0:27:59 Muse the business, of course, and to make
sure that that stays sustainable, but.
0:28:04 It has to be sustainable.
0:28:06 for me as a single person as well.
0:28:08 And so prioritizing which of the holes
in the bucket do I need to prioritize
0:28:14 for my own sanity sake, regardless
of what everyone else needs, right?
0:28:17 It's just either taking up too much of
my time or it's too much of a drain.
0:28:20 the community has been wonderful.
0:28:23 and, there's a discord community
where, lots of the folks chat.
0:28:27 And so they'll bring up.
0:28:29 Some really great ideas.
0:28:30 They've been a wonderful way for
me to bounce my own ideas off of to
0:28:35 say, Hey, I'm thinking about this.
0:28:36 What do we think about this?
0:28:37 I've noticed people have asked about this.
0:28:39 because the biggest part for me
of losing that team is, losing
0:28:43 the people to talk with right?
0:28:46 Like, when you live on a deserted
Island all by yourself, you go crazy.
0:28:49 You need other people to talk with.
0:28:53 And so the community has, has helped fill
that role for me in many ways to, to be
0:28:59 the sounding board, which has been great.
0:29:01 And
0:29:05 then prioritizing those
gave me my time back.
0:29:08 In terms of the support load, because
those are the tickets I prioritize first,
0:29:12 and then I was able to say, okay, now,
from the business standpoint, what is
0:29:17 it I need to do for Muse as a business,
as opposed to Muse as a customer for
0:29:23 customer support or personally or
anything else and this past year, 2024,
0:29:30 I focused on two things primarily.
0:29:32 The first one was Setapp integration,
so I don't know if your listeners
0:29:38 are familiar with Setapp.
0:29:39 It is essentially an
alternative App Store.
0:29:42 You subscribe for a monthly fee
and then for that single monthly
0:29:48 subscription, you get access to
everything in their library, every app.
0:29:51 So Muse is now one of those apps.
0:29:54 And the way that's, that's Setapp, I
don't want to get into the weeds about
0:29:59 the, how they manage the business and
revenue share and all that kind of stuff.
0:30:03 But the point is, is out of that
monthly subscription, it is revenue
0:30:07 shared with the applications
that that user actually uses.
0:30:11 And so if they change what they
use months, month to month, the
0:30:15 revenue share changes month to month.
0:30:18 And so it feels fair to
you as the app creator.
0:30:21 Yeah, so it's fair to me as the app
creator because I get paid based on usage.
0:30:26 it's also fair based on
kind of the type of app.
0:30:29 And so what would be.
0:30:32 A 99 cents a year menu bar app in the App
Store, takes a smaller share than Muse,
0:30:38 which is a significant, subscription.
0:30:41 And so it's fair, both for time
spent and for, the revenue split.
0:30:47 Which is great.
0:30:48 And so that has been wonderful because
it has brought in an entirely new wave
0:30:54 of subscribers who would otherwise
never purchase a subscription because
0:31:01 they're on Setapp specifically
because they don't like subscriptions.
0:31:05 So they're going to have one to Setapp
and use everything inside of Setapp
0:31:09 instead of having 7 or 10 or 12 on the
App Store that they manage individually.
0:31:15 And then similarly, the people that
do have individual subscriptions are
0:31:18 typically not the people that are
going to have a Setapp subscription.
0:31:22 And so it's really, you know,
the Venn diagram has very little
0:31:25 overlap, which, brought in a.
0:31:29 completely new segment of
customers, which was helpful.
0:31:32 Where do you, yourself fall into this Venn
diagram and how did you arrive at that?
0:31:38 This is integrating with Setapp
actually deserves to be like on
0:31:43 your roadmap for a given year, since
there's only so many things you can do.
0:31:46 So choosing your priorities
is really, really important.
0:31:50 How did you arrive at, prioritizing
working on a Setapp integration?
0:31:54 Yeah, it was an important piece because
so throughout the life of Muse, the early
0:32:00 years revenue grew and then that last
probably year and a half revenue declined.
0:32:08 and so as I took Muse over solo
revenues, declining month over month.
0:32:13 And so every time I'd wake up on the
first of a month, I would have less
0:32:18 money coming in than the month before.
0:32:20 Right.
0:32:21 which is fine in the short term,
but obviously like everyone knows
0:32:26 where the, where the slope intersect.
0:32:28 hits the zero axis.
0:32:31 So that that was a big priority was okay.
0:32:35 How can I, how can I
change this trajectory?
0:32:40 it needs to not be going down.
0:32:42 And so focused on, new revenue and
new customers was a very important.
0:32:49 Piece of solving that.
0:32:51 And that has been, really my guiding
principle over the past year was out of
0:32:57 all of the App Store users, how can I.
You know, take a very kind of traditional
0:33:04 product management approach and measure.
0:33:08 I get this many people
from App Store browse.
0:33:10 I get this many people on the
product page in the App Store.
0:33:13 I get this many downloads.
0:33:14 I get this many people putting
their email address in.
0:33:16 I get this right.
0:33:17 Like you can go down the
entire, the entire funnel.
0:33:21 And where people getting
stuck, where is it confusing?
0:33:24 Where's the biggest drop off between
people who think, oh, yeah, maybe
0:33:27 I'll get this thing Muse a try.
0:33:29 Oh, it looks neat.
0:33:31 And then sometime later
they go, eh, no, thanks.
0:33:34 Right?
0:33:34 Like, why did, why did they go?
0:33:35 No, thanks.
0:33:36 Like, what, what was the miss?
0:33:38 So I focused a lot on, that on what's
called the bottom of the funnel.
0:33:43 So after they download, after they log in,
what is that first time user experience?
0:33:47 And there's still quite a bit more
that I'm, I'm still focused on there.
0:33:50 And the other thing I worked on this past
year was Setapp, which was top of the
0:33:55 funnel, bringing in a completely new pile
of users that had otherwise essentially
0:34:01 not had access to Muse because they
would never use it on the App Store.
0:34:05 And so the combination of those two things
has really helped flatten that decline.
0:34:10 And so the Muse revenue over the
past year has stopped, declining so
0:34:14 dramatically and has really started
to level off, which is important.
0:34:18 So from use going forward over this
coming year, the goal, of course, is to
0:34:24 continue that trend and start growing
again, start growing that user base.
0:34:28 And that's going to be, more of
that same strategy more, of course,
0:34:31 at the bottom of the funnel.
0:34:33 There's lots of things I still want
to improve about the first time user
0:34:35 experience, first time onboarding, kind of
early customer education with a website.
0:34:42 we used to have a, a wonderful
video handbook that showed all of
0:34:46 the fantastic gestures in Muse.
0:34:48 So building something like that
again to help, to help new users
0:34:51 become familiar with the very unique.
0:34:53 interactions that Muse has, as well as
some things at the top of the funnel
0:34:57 to bring in more, more customers.
0:34:59 but I think holding all of those
perspectives in my mind has been one
0:35:03 of the weirdest things and I think is
one of the most difficult things about
0:35:07 being a solo entrepreneur because with
a team, of course, you can say, okay,
0:35:13 this other person is going to handle,
you know, broadly speaking, they're
0:35:17 going to be the marketing person.
0:35:18 They're going to handle the funnel.
0:35:19 They're going to think about partnerships.
0:35:20 They're going to think about
content, marketing and social
0:35:23 media and all that kind of stuff.
0:35:25 I get to focus as an engineer on just the
sync engine and just a lot of the problems
0:35:29 and just bugs and customer support.
0:35:32 And this other team member gets to
write, like, obviously you separate your
0:35:35 concerns, but when you're working on
your own, You have all of those concerns
0:35:40 in your head at the same time and a lot
of times those compete with each other.
0:35:43 that's been a very, I don't know
that there's a correct answer.
0:35:46 I've kind of, come to my, my Zen place
and realized that I cannot do it all.
0:35:54 I cannot do what I want.
0:35:55 I don't have enough
time to do what I want.
0:35:57 And frankly, I don't have
enough time to do what I need.
0:36:00 So it's, you know, I, I can only
prioritize as best I can, but
0:36:04 there is way too much on the plate.
0:36:09 And so I, I've just had to accept
that, you know, sometimes I'm going
0:36:12 to pick stuff up off the plate
and it's going to be a mistake.
0:36:16 Oops.
0:36:17 Let's get back to it and go to the
next thing and keep pushing forward and
0:36:20 prioritize as best I can, which, was
another kind of realization over this past
0:36:25 year was just the act of prioritizing.
0:36:28 Takes away from the time
you have to do right?
0:36:32 And so everything,
everything is a trade off.
0:36:34 Deciding what to work on is a trade off.
0:36:36 Working on it is a trade off.
0:36:38 Like you're always giving up something.
0:36:39 that has been.
0:36:41 Easily the hardest, the hardest
piece of doing this alone,
0:36:44 there's a few aspects to this that might
not be super intuitive unless you've done
0:36:49 them, which is if you are so far, mostly
like the engineer, or you're mostly,
0:36:55 someone who's working in marketing or
doing something else, you don't really
0:36:59 do like the context switching between
switching between the entire modes.
0:37:04 I think this might be most intuitive
to a founder who has started out by
0:37:08 themselves or with a very small founding
team in the early days where you're
0:37:12 switching between the hats constantly.
0:37:14 But that context switching
is a double-edged sword.
0:37:17 It might, the positive side is that
through the perspective of engineering.
0:37:23 You might have a much more informed
perspective now to be more effective
0:37:27 with your marketing hat on, but also
that context switch, doesn't come
0:37:32 for free that might, when you come
back into engineering, you might've
0:37:36 already forgotten a lot about
the context that you had before.
0:37:40 and another thing that I've
actually for my own health.
0:37:43 sake, mental health sake, I actually
give a quite a bit of weight in
0:37:48 terms of prioritizing what I work on.
0:37:50 in terms of what I feel I have the
most energy for, what do I feel like
0:37:55 I have the most inspiration for?
0:37:57 This might be not the most, if, if
someone is like super structured, like
0:38:03 a very rational mathematical in terms
of like, okay, by all of those metrics,
0:38:08 this is the most important thing.
0:38:10 I might still work on this.
0:38:12 Second or third, most important thing,
just because I know I'm going to have
0:38:16 so much more energy working on that
and I can build up momentum this way.
0:38:20 So this is something I've, I've seen
for myself that this works the best
0:38:25 factoring into, into my decision
making on like what to prioritize.
0:38:30 I can totally see how this is one of
the hardest things in, in your journey.
0:38:35 but given that you're still on this
journey, I assume you're, the kind of
0:38:39 person who sees the glass half full.
0:38:42 So, I'm curious, like, what were some
of the highlights of the last, or
0:38:47 since this new chapter, transitioning
from Muse as a team to Muse as a
0:38:51 solo endeavor, what have been some
of the, like, the true highlights?
0:38:56 Muse for interviews
0:38:56 the piece over the past year, year
and a half that I have loved the
0:38:59 most by far is, I've started two
things and they're, they're related.
0:39:04 So, in some ways, they're
just one big thing.
0:39:06 I call it the Muse for Muse interviews.
0:39:10 And so Muse, of course,
means inspiration, right?
0:39:13 So, like, who is the inspiration for Muse?
0:39:16 It is all of the people that
are, that are using Muse.
0:39:19 It is the new people that are just
finding it and are excited to get that,
0:39:23 where it just really fits for them.
0:39:25 there are still so many that have used
Muse since, you know, version one, since
0:39:31 it was just a, twinkle in the eye and test
flight and hadn't even been out to the App
0:39:36 Store yet, but were the very, very first.
0:39:38 Kind of test users.
0:39:40 Do you call them users?
0:39:42 Uh, yeah.
0:39:43 So I was talking with my wife
and she, she called them Musers
0:39:47 instead of users, which is fun.
0:39:50 So yeah, but I've started,
scheduling interviews and saying
0:39:55 like, Hey, I just love to, to learn.
0:39:57 What do you do every day?
0:39:58 How does Muse fit into your workflow?
0:40:01 what else, what other apps do you use?
0:40:02 What have you also, have you tried?
0:40:04 What really grinds your gears?
0:40:07 What are those little rough edges for you
that are just annoying, but kind of don't
0:40:11 matter, but just take you out of the flow.
0:40:13 Maybe a little bit.
0:40:14 Those have been wonderful, both just
for the energy and the excitement
0:40:19 to hear from them and, to hear
how Muse is making a difference in
0:40:24 their workday and in their flow.
0:40:25 And then, and it's also, wonderful
because you can start seeing patterns
0:40:30 and the way that, people react and that
the types of things that they bring
0:40:35 up dark mode is a common one, right?
0:40:37 Like there's so many times in support
where I still get requests for dark mode.
0:40:41 And so this coming year, I would
love to do something for dark mode.
0:40:45 but as an example, as I'll talk
with somebody on one of these
0:40:47 interviews, maybe it'll be 30 minutes,
sometimes an hour on a zoom call.
0:40:52 It won't just be an email that says,
dear Adam, please make dark mode.
0:40:56 Thanks.
0:40:56 Bye.
0:40:57 Right.
0:40:58 But I, I actually hear, Oh,
this is where they're doing it.
0:41:02 This is why they want dark mode
because they're in this library or
0:41:05 in this class, or they have this
thing or who knows what, right?
0:41:09 Like, another one I get is, Oh,
please enable more zoom options.
0:41:13 Okay, great.
0:41:14 Right.
0:41:14 Like that's, that's a neat feature.
0:41:16 But then when you're talking with
somebody and they're talking about how,
0:41:19 Oh, The font size in this scenario is
actually a bit too small or sometimes
0:41:24 when I don't have my glasses on or my
readers on the other side of the room,
0:41:28 I'd really like to be able to zoom.
0:41:29 And so you start hearing how
the accessibility feature that
0:41:34 to an engineer's mind is just a
feature really fits into the day
0:41:38 and really fits into the flow.
0:41:40 And so that's been super inspiring.
0:41:42 And you might also find some things
that were just, you as an engineer
0:41:46 note, oh, this is such a small thing.
0:41:48 You just haven't done it yet.
0:41:49 And it might for someone who's using it,
just make all the world of a difference
0:41:55 to them from taking the app from like.
0:41:57 being wished for that they couldn't use
it to actually using it on a daily basis.
0:42:03 And it brings, like I say, it brings
so much energy and motivation to you
0:42:07 as a builder to hear those stories and
like, knowing, okay, here's Alexandra
0:42:12 over there and Alexandra is like loving
it in this use case, and I didn't
0:42:17 ever, plan for that and it's happening.
0:42:19 And that, that's great.
0:42:21 Yeah, exactly.
0:42:22 Exactly.
0:42:23 And so that's something that, mean,
early in Muse's life, of course, it
0:42:26 came from research and so user studies
and user interviews and interactions
0:42:32 and stuff were a huge part of early
Muse's life and, and really a huge
0:42:36 part of, of its early success.
0:42:39 I started doing these interviews,
probably about four months
0:42:42 ago, something like that.
0:42:44 And gosh, with the impact they've
already had over those four months,
0:42:47 I wish I'd done it on day one.
0:42:49 You know, and I wish we'd
done it, every day since then.
0:42:52 And so a big piece of going forward is how
can I get a consistent flow, especially
0:42:59 a brand new users coming into Muse?
0:43:01 And what is that brand new user
experience and then a consistent flow
0:43:05 of longer term users, because I don't
want to over optimize for the long
0:43:11 term users, because then no new people
are ever going to be able to fit.
0:43:15 But I also don't want to over optimize
for the new users, because then
0:43:17 they're going to be super happy for 6
months until they're a long term user.
0:43:21 And they find out that long term
user problems are never solved.
0:43:25 So it's a balance of making sure that I'm.
0:43:28 Like, I mean, like we said, a thousand
times already, it's trade offs kind
0:43:32 of all the way down, but having those
interviews with real people using
0:43:37 the app in a real experience and just
talking to them about their life and
0:43:40 about their flow, no matter what stage
they're at, whether it's earlier or long
0:43:45 term has been really, really valuable.
0:43:48 And I think that the second thing
that I'll bring up that has been.
0:43:53 Just a big joy and kind of a
wonderful, wonderful new thing.
0:43:58 I'm starting, highlights for
how different people use Muse.
0:44:03 And so we have one, that was just posted.
0:44:06 that's up on our YouTube.
0:44:08 the Muse YouTube channel with,
Conrad Levely, and how he uses
0:44:12 Muse as part of his, research.
0:44:15 So he has a whole handful of
different apps that he uses to
0:44:18 explore various different topics.
0:44:20 he's retired and as part of his
day now, he just loves learning and
0:44:25 loves researching and loves reading.
0:44:27 And so it is about how he uses Muse
in that workflow and over the coming
0:44:33 months, I'm going to be releasing
more of these and inviting more, both
0:44:36 long term and, and new Muse users, to
share how Muse fits into their life.
0:44:41 Cause that's something I've heard
consistently from folks is boy, I really
0:44:46 love Muse, but I'm really curious.
0:44:48 it's such kind of an abstract tool.
0:44:50 Am I using it right?
0:44:52 I think this makes such a huge difference
that someone is aware of a certain product
0:44:59 and think it's cool, but then they think,
okay, what does it have to do with me?
0:45:04 And then move on and just seeing sort
of the usage scenarios, since like,
0:45:10 obviously that person who's using
it seems to have figured something
0:45:14 out, that makes them more effective,
productive, joyful, more in the flow.
0:45:21 And, I want to be like that, but,
I need to see it first before I can
0:45:26 connect the dots and say, ah, yeah,
this is how it fits into my life.
0:45:30 Exactly.
0:45:30 Exactly.
0:45:31 Yeah.
0:45:31 Muse is such a flexible tool.
0:45:33 It's a, you know, you hand somebody a
stack of paper and everyone's going to
0:45:36 do something different with that paper.
0:45:38 Someone's going to bind a book and
someone's going to make post it notes and
0:45:41 someone's going to make a small journal
and someone's going to sketch, you know?
0:45:43 And so, I think there's a lot of
inspiration that can happen seeing
0:45:47 how different people, use Muse
and seeing all of the different
0:45:50 ways it can fit into your flow.
0:45:51 And fit into your day.
0:45:53 So, yeah, I think those 2 things have been
the biggest piece for me is interviewing
0:45:58 and then, also just highlighting and
then being able to share, how community
0:46:03 members use Muse with the rest of
the community has been wonderful.
0:46:07 So both the interviews as well as the
highlights are very strong on terms of
0:46:13 the anecdotes of a particular person
and you can still remember that.
0:46:18 But the.
0:46:20 flip side, that's the anecdotes and
then the other part is like actual data,
0:46:25 that can inform how you're prioritizing,
working on something, et cetera.
0:46:30 And that can be, I, for me, anecdotes are
a lot more intuitive and I've tried to
0:46:36 measure enough things that I know, okay.
0:46:40 Those measurements are always,
only like a partial picture.
0:46:43 Sometimes you, particularly in
a local-first context, you don't
0:46:48 want to just like flip on telemetry
for every user where privacy
0:46:52 is really important, et cetera.
0:46:54 So how do you modulate between or
prioritize between anecdotes versus
0:47:00 data and how do you even have you
done anything to measure things?
0:47:05 And how did you go about that
in a local-first context?
0:47:09 Data vs anecdotes
0:47:09 Yes.
0:47:09 So data is interesting because
It's so easy to collect
0:47:14 enormous amounts of usage data.
0:47:17 Was this feature used?
0:47:18 Yes or no.
0:47:19 How many times per day was it used?
0:47:21 Was it used this week?
0:47:22 You know, was it used in the
first month of the person?
0:47:25 Doing it or only after a month to,
you know, like you can, you can slice
0:47:28 things a million different ways.
0:47:30 so in products past, I have often said,
well, I don't know what's important.
0:47:37 So I'm just going to collect a bunch
of data and I'll figure it out later.
0:47:39 And then later comes around and
I have a huge pile of data that
0:47:43 I don't know how to look at.
0:47:45 And it's just overwhelming.
0:47:46 So I wanted a completely different path
this time on, this was December, 2023.
0:47:53 So a handful of months after taking over
Muse, I'd already done a lot on bug fixes.
0:47:59 It was starting to kind of get, okay,
new users are happy, existing users are
0:48:03 happy, the fires small as they were,
they've been put out for the new release.
0:48:08 Let's look at the data and
figure out what's important.
0:48:10 What do I need to look at?
0:48:12 so in times past, I've had way too
much data and I didn't know how
0:48:17 to pull out the answers from it.
0:48:19 And so this time with Muse, I've been
very purposeful about saying, what are
0:48:23 the important questions I need answered?
0:48:25 Let me clarify to myself.
0:48:27 What do I actually care about?
0:48:30 What is the most important
thing that I need?
0:48:32 And then let me go collect data
specifically to answer this question.
0:48:36 And that's it.
0:48:37 And maybe that data could be
used for other questions too.
0:48:39 And there's all sorts of different
stuff there, but I'm very purposefully
0:48:43 limiting what I look at to only
the questions I know matter.
0:48:50 And so the biggest question, that I had
initially going into it was that customer
0:48:55 funnel, how many people hit, hit the App
Store page, how many people download,
0:48:59 how many people log in, how many people.
0:49:02 subscribe, and then there's kind of a,
a middle one, which I call activation.
0:49:06 So between logging in and
subscribing, it's, are they
0:49:10 getting value out of from Muse?
0:49:12 Like, have they done something that
they've at least played with it enough
0:49:17 that yeah, it seems to be, they understand
what they're saying yes or no to.
0:49:21 So the first thing I did is I
downloaded, We, we don't use
0:49:26 generally any third party trackers.
0:49:28 So all of the data we have about
user behavior is on the Muse server
0:49:33 and is not shared with anyone else.
0:49:35 So it's not used for advertising or
for, you know, various other things.
0:49:40 that's been a very important piece.
0:49:42 And so I've been able to look at that.
0:49:44 Kind of feature usage data.
0:49:46 We don't collect any data in terms of
what are you physically typing into Muse?
0:49:51 It's all about, did you use note cards?
0:49:53 Did you use links?
0:49:54 Did you use boards?
0:49:55 That sort of stuff, right?
0:49:56 Do you pull this out out of the sync
data or is that a separate thing that's
0:50:01 completely separate from the sync?
0:50:03 It is completely separate.
0:50:05 And so, and there are no circumstance
in my poking around inside of sync data.
0:50:11 that is a hundred percent kind of.
0:50:13 Private tucked away.
0:50:15 And then there's a separate piece
that is just product usage data.
0:50:20 And so that, and that collects
none of the personal information
0:50:24 that you're putting into Muse.
0:50:25 It's only collecting.
0:50:27 You know, sort of, did you click this
button or not kinds of data so the
0:50:31 first thing I did is I downloaded,
did people use this feature?
0:50:35 Yes or no, across 30 different features,
30 different, 40 different things.
0:50:41 And then did this person subscribe or not?
0:50:43 And I gave me a giant table
of data that I looked into and
0:50:47 said, okay, which of these.
0:50:50 features using which of these features
is or is not correlated with subscribing
0:50:56 and I narrowed it down to, I think,
six and so if people use all six of
0:51:01 these features, then they are more
likely to subscribe than not and.
0:51:07 What that means to me is, it's obviously
not just, okay, great, let me go force
0:51:13 everyone to do these six things and then
clearly they're going to subscribe more.
0:51:17 No, what it means is that, okay,
doing these six things gives them a
0:51:21 real good feeling for what Muse is.
0:51:23 And once they have a good feeling for
what Muse is, those kinds of people are
0:51:26 going to more often than not subscribe.
0:51:29 So I have that activation.
0:51:31 That's what I call activation.
0:51:32 so the report that I run connects
to, app figures, which connects to
0:51:36 the App Store for App Store metrics.
0:51:38 I can also connect to the App Store
directly because there are sometimes
0:51:42 information that I want to get
kind of the raw data for instead
0:51:45 of app figures, aggregated data.
0:51:47 I connect to the Muse server to get, more
detailed analytics about subscription and
0:51:52 about activation and things like that.
0:51:54 and I connect to the, we use
Fathom for website analytics.
0:51:59 So it is a very privacy conscious
website analytics tracker.
0:52:04 And so that gives me number
of visits, number of click
0:52:06 throughs, things like that.
0:52:08 so I pull all this data from three
or four or five different sources.
0:52:11 And then together that gives me full
visibility from number who see the
0:52:17 website, click through the App Store,
download link all the way down.
0:52:21 And so once I have that data,
that's when I can say, okay, let
0:52:25 me look at new user onboarding.
0:52:27 What happens if I provide this kind
of video, or if I provide this kind of
0:52:33 tutorial, or if I change this kind of
thing, is that better or worse for this
0:52:39 single step from download to activation?
0:52:42 Not even caring how it affects
subscriptions or anything else, but
0:52:45 like, can I just change this metric?
0:52:48 and so the times I've done this
over the past year, year and a half
0:52:53 have been for onboarding, of course.
0:52:55 So the first tutorials
that people can get.
0:52:58 Also, Setapp has helped because Setapp
takes out the subscription altogether.
0:53:05 And so then that very last
step from download to log in to
0:53:09 activation to subscription p user.
0:53:12 The only thing I need to care
about is download to log in to
0:53:16 activation once they're using these
consistently, then that's when
0:53:20 Setapp recurring revenue comes in.
0:53:22 so that was important on the Setapp side.
0:53:24 On the App Store side, I implemented,
sign in with Apple because Muse requires
0:53:31 an account, for the sync server.
0:53:34 That means the first time download
experience, people load up Muse and they
0:53:38 see, hi, give me your email address.
0:53:40 Muse is very conscious more than I
think almost any other company I've
0:53:45 seen or worked with about privacy.
0:53:47 But when the first time user experiences.
0:53:50 Hey, buddy, give me your email address.
0:53:52 It doesn't, it doesn't inspire confidence.
0:53:54 and so I implemented sign in with
Apple and then that lets people
0:53:57 say, okay, let me use that.
0:53:59 I can choose a private email address.
0:54:01 I can maintain my privacy, but still
kind of create the account that allows
0:54:06 for them use sync service to work.
0:54:09 So that helps the download to login
step of that entire funnel flow.
0:54:15 And so it's been rewarding to.
0:54:17 focus on very specific places in that
funnel and say, okay, this piece right
0:54:23 here, right after the download, what
kind of context does that person have?
0:54:27 What do they need?
0:54:28 What would be helpful?
0:54:29 maybe new images in
the App Store or maybe.
0:54:32 better tutorials on the website, or maybe,
you know, fill in the blank, but how
0:54:37 can I get this from 92 percent to 96%?
0:54:42 And then in theory, that will also have
downstream effects at the bottom of the
0:54:45 funnel, but if for whatever piece that
I'm looking at, that is the biggest.
0:54:50 problem that has been very helpful
from a prioritization standpoint.
0:54:55 And that has been very helpful, to keep
me focused because they're, you know,
0:55:00 like I've said before, there's too
many things for me to work on that I
0:55:04 have time in my life to physically do.
0:55:07 And so when I am building, it can
be motivating and really helpful
0:55:11 for me to say, Okay, Adam, remember,
you're focused on helping this
0:55:15 person at this step in their journey.
0:55:17 they would love to use Muse, but
they can't because they're stuck.
0:55:21 And so you're going to help them.
0:55:22 How how can you help this
kind of person get unstuck?
0:55:25 and see what Muse is so that they can
decide whether it's a good fit for their
0:55:28 life or not and for their workflow or not.
0:55:30 and so that's been very helpful to
collect very specific, and still
0:55:36 privacy preserving data that helped
me make decisions in terms of that.
0:55:41 That flow, there's a handful of
other statistics I look at in terms
0:55:44 of like App Store revenue or Setapp
revenue, subscription counts,
0:55:49 cancellations, those sorts of things.
0:55:51 But broadly speaking, that funnel
data has been the most important and
0:55:55 for prioritizing my, my work and in
the world of data, it's a very small
0:56:00 piece, compared to the data pile.
0:56:03 I've seen at other companies or
in previous things, it's it's
0:56:07 really helped keep me focused.
0:56:09 In terms of Muse being a local-first
app, as opposed to being like a more
0:56:14 traditional, cloud based SaaS app.
0:56:18 Is there anything that you thought
about different when it comes to,
0:56:23 getting better insights through
data into how users are using it?
0:56:27 So, there's this interesting balance
between, uh, local-first really tries to
0:56:31 preserve the privacy, a user and you with
the best intentions of like, Building this
0:56:38 app for the people who you want to serve.
0:56:41 And yet you need a little
bit of visibility into this.
0:56:44 Have you thought about this for Muse
differently than for previous apps?
0:56:49 And did you build the analytics
stack from a technological
0:56:52 perspective in any different way
than you've built previous ones?
0:56:57 Yeah.
0:56:57 So when I, joined Muse, in 2020, the
analytics stack that's still being
0:57:02 used was built already and that was,
implemented entirely on the Muse server.
0:57:09 So that way, none of the analytics
data went to a third party.
0:57:13 It kind of stayed within Muse.
0:57:15 And so that was very helpful.
0:57:16 And then, like I mentioned before,
that analytics data that we collect is
0:57:22 entirely separate from the actual synced
data of a person's library in Muse.
0:57:30 Is there still like the same
sort of identity behind it or
0:57:34 how does, user privacy preserving
look like at that point?
0:57:38 Do you, for example, like have something
that is, identifying a user, but you
0:57:43 hash it so you can't like, correlate it
anymore or, how are you going about that?
0:57:49 Yeah, so it does use the same user ID.
0:57:54 And so I can see, which is
helpful for our support tickets.
0:57:57 And so when a support ticket comes in,
I can see, obviously, when the person
0:58:02 signed up, if they're subscribed or not.
0:58:05 And I can also see, which devices they
have synced to the sync server and how
0:58:11 recently those devices were connected.
0:58:13 Because far and away one of the
most common support requests I get
0:58:18 is Usually a one line email that
says: Hey, sync, is it working?
0:58:21 Or, Hey, there's a problem with my iPhone.
0:58:25 Uh, how can I fix it?
0:58:27 And so I can immediately look
and say, okay, I don't see an
0:58:30 iPhone on their account, clearly
it's not connected correctly.
0:58:34 And so that helps me reply.
0:58:36 but that, that is kind of the
only connection is that user ID.
0:58:39 So I do see.
0:58:41 User behavior, and then there's a separate
bucket that has all the user synced data.
0:58:46 But the most important guiding principle
through the entire life of Muse has
0:58:51 always been, the user's synced data,
their library data is off limits.
0:58:58 It, there's just, it's
just never looked at.
0:59:01 It's never looked at by a human and
it's never looked at by a robot either.
0:59:06 Like we don't run analytics on it.
0:59:08 We don't run scripts to see
how things do like it is.
0:59:13 It is its own little box in
the closet that is not touched.
0:59:17 And then that way, the only data that
we see that is used for analytics
0:59:22 is, the feature usage data that we
specifically send, that does not
0:59:27 contain any of the actual library data.
0:59:30 None of the text, none of the ink,
none of the boars, none of the content,
0:59:33 none of that kind of stuff lands there.
0:59:35 It's just, oh, they made a board card.
0:59:37 Okay, great.
0:59:39 I need to know if people make
board cards or not, because if
0:59:41 they don't, what are they doing?
0:59:42 Because Muse is based around
boards and whiteboards.
0:59:45 Yeah, I think it's this interesting
balance where with local-first, we
0:59:50 obviously want to move beyond the
status quo of how software is being
0:59:54 built traditionally yet, or in terms
of how software is deployed and
1:00:00 architected in a way traditionally,
but yet a lot of the more traditional.
1:00:05 Product management learning still apply.
1:00:08 Like we still don't want to fly blind.
1:00:11 We still need to understand what
the users are doing, et cetera.
1:00:14 So there is a slight tension there
between still like knowing how are
1:00:20 our users successful with the app?
1:00:21 Are they struggling?
1:00:23 Where are they falling off?
1:00:24 And yet, The, that the user's private
data is sacred and you don't touch it yet.
1:00:29 You don't even have a way to look
into it as it's encrypted, et cetera.
1:00:34 So I'm curious, like what will the
ideal analytics stack for local-first
1:00:39 apps, maybe look like in the coming
years to have some intuitions or some
1:00:44 wishes for like, this is what the
ideal stack there would look like.
1:00:49 Analytics for local-first apps
1:00:49 I think the way that we've done
it at Muse, is a really good
1:00:53 first step and is, is really good.
1:00:55 I think it's, table stakes for the way
that any business should operate where
1:01:00 the user's private data is on one side
of the world and the data you use for
1:01:05 analytics and for product decisions
is on the other side of the world.
1:01:09 And those two just never meet.
1:01:11 because there's no, situation where
any kind of product person should
1:01:15 have any kind of visibility at
all into someone's private data.
1:01:20 And so that, I think, is the most
important piece, that was there from day
1:01:25 one at Muse and continues today at Muse.
1:01:28 collecting as little as possible,
I think, is also important.
1:01:31 And, that's been true with Muse
where the third, it's so easy to
1:01:38 say, Oh, look, a new data provider.
1:01:40 Let me just go like, let
me go integrate mix panel.
1:01:44 Let me go integrate apps fire.
1:01:45 Let me go integrate, you know, you
could put in four or five SDKs and
1:01:49 suddenly start sending out analytics
to five different advertising companies
1:01:54 with like three lines of code, right?
1:01:56 Like it's very easy to do.
1:01:59 and I think being very cautious and
purposeful about what kind of data
1:02:04 you're collecting and making sure
you're doing it to answer specific
1:02:08 questions is really important.
1:02:10 And that's what I've done at Muse
over the past year and a half.
1:02:14 And that's what we did at Muse in the
years before that as well is making
1:02:19 sure that we, the data we do collect.
1:02:21 stays just within Muse and doesn't
leak off to other third party
1:02:26 advertising, firms, and that we use
that data responsibly and that one
1:02:32 of the ways that we do that is that
we don't collect more than we need
1:02:36 and we don't collect private things.
1:02:38 Your private data doesn't land in
the product decision repository, and
1:02:43 that's, I think should be table stakes
for any company, but especially for
1:02:47 local-first, where, where privacy is, is
job number 1 and is really purpose number
1:02:52 1 in many ways of local for software.
1:02:54 So slightly shifting gears a little
bit to another aspect where we need to
1:03:00 kind of reinvent the wheel, a little
bit for local-first software, which
1:03:04 is how do you charge for software?
1:03:07 And I think in your case, I think you
have a somewhat easier, foundation
1:03:13 for that already, given that you
started in the Apple ecosystem where
1:03:18 you can say many things about the
Apple App Store, et cetera, like
1:03:22 how it charges an arm and a leg.
1:03:24 But, at least from the user perspective,
there's already a well trotting path
1:03:30 for how are you going to get some money
and now you've extended on top of that
1:03:36 with Setapp, I think a lot of other
local-first apps are built primarily
1:03:42 starting from the web, where I think it's
a lot more challenging, but yeah, how
1:03:47 much of a easy versus difficult part was
the getting actually paid for working
1:03:54 on the app and, do you have thoughts
on, what that could have looked like
1:03:59 when you would have started in the web?
1:04:01 App Store vs web distribution
1:04:01 Yeah.
1:04:02 I think my default is to always think
about things in terms of the almost
1:04:07 every single time I go back to the
customer funnel, which is essentially
1:04:10 what it was, the customer experience.
1:04:12 As you mentioned, the nice
thing about the Apple ecosystem
1:04:14 is the customer experiences.
1:04:16 Oh, do I want this or not?
1:04:19 One tap on the subscribe button,
the prompt comes up and it's
1:04:22 either face ID or a fingerprint.
1:04:24 And then,
1:04:27 so it's essentially like one and a half
steps from decision to money on the web.
1:04:33 It's often significantly
harder, and that is, okay.
1:04:37 Do I want to do it?
1:04:38 Okay.
1:04:38 Yeah.
1:04:39 Let me go click in.
1:04:40 Okay.
1:04:40 probably have to choose a plan.
1:04:42 Let me choose a plan.
1:04:43 Okay.
1:04:43 Well, now I have to enter
my credit card information.
1:04:46 Okay.
1:04:46 Now it wants my address.
1:04:47 Well, now it wants my billing address,
which is the same as my address, but
1:04:51 it has a separate, separate field.
1:04:52 And so then I click okay, and
then it gives me the summary
1:04:54 and then I click checkout.
1:04:55 Right?
1:04:56 So suddenly that's like
a four or five step
1:05:00 regardless of the, even separate
from the decision of, is this a
1:05:04 subscription or is this a one time
payment or relatively one time payment?
1:05:09 so the biggest thing that I
think about is how can you make
1:05:11 that experience much simpler?
1:05:14 and how can you make that experience
trustworthy and the nice thing about
1:05:20 the App Store is it gives you both.
1:05:22 It is trustworthy because it, the
purchase is the exact same every
1:05:25 single time and it goes through Apple.
1:05:28 So people don't have to trust me.
1:05:30 They can just trust Apple and on the
web, you have to overcome both barriers.
1:05:35 You have to become trustworthy enough
that someone says, why should I put
1:05:39 my credit card in this random website?
1:05:41 And you have to make
it simple enough that.
1:05:44 On step three out of seven, they don't
say, man, this is so much trouble.
1:05:49 actually nevermind.
1:05:51 part of it, some, I think
Patreon helps with some of that,
1:05:54 subscriptions help with some of that.
1:05:57 sometimes even if it's a web based
service, there might be, iPhone app
1:06:02 components to it or Android app components
to it, or native Mac components to
1:06:06 it, helper apps, things like that.
1:06:08 And sometimes those could be paid
for even when the web is free.
1:06:12 it, it really depends per
business, but it's difficult.
1:06:16 Like that's, that's one of the hardest
things, especially as an independent
1:06:20 software developer to decide what
your business model is, is a difficult
1:06:27 decision to physically implement all of
the infrastructure to make that business
1:06:31 model possible to take someone's money.
1:06:33 Is difficult and then finding out, huh,
this payment provider has four steps, but
1:06:40 if I'd use this other payment provider,
it would have been two and a half steps.
1:06:43 Should I spend another 2 months moving?
1:06:45 I think this is sort of a reoccurring
theme that, to pull off local-first.
1:06:51 is very hard and to pull it off in the
web is the hardest mode so far, since,
1:06:57 not just from the perspective of having
all of the technical capabilities that
1:07:03 a native platform provides that you
have it in the web, it gets increasingly
1:07:07 better with things like the file system
APIs, WASM, et cetera, but on macOS.
1:07:14 At some point you click on that download
button, maybe you've paid before, maybe
1:07:18 afterwards, and now you have a DMG file.
1:07:21 And that is, you can still
put it on a floppy drive if
1:07:24 you want to, and that's yours.
1:07:27 That's hopefully still gonna work.
1:07:28 It's most likely still gonna work
unless it's like all sassified.
1:07:32 But in the web, you have like, Visited
a website before and in Safari, if you
1:07:38 haven't visited that in so long, it's
going to like wipe all of your cash.
1:07:44 So what is the equivalent of a DMG?
1:07:46 And then you haven't even
started about payment.
1:07:49 so that's a lot harder.
1:07:50 And I think you've been, smart about
choosing, or I guess that's just
1:07:55 been inherently an implication of
The beginnings of Muse to start in
1:08:00 the Apple ecosystem where you could,
sort of sidestep a bunch of the still
1:08:06 open questions around local-first
software by, like piggybacking on a
1:08:12 more mature ecosystem in many regards.
1:08:14 Yeah, absolutely.
1:08:15 I think that's the, that's
easily the hardest part about.
1:08:19 Building any new product is the
technical challenges of whatever platform
1:08:23 you're on, the customer challenges
of finding a way for them to pay.
1:08:28 in a way that is fair for
them, and they are comfortable
1:08:32 with, and that is trustworthy.
1:08:34 And whatever that process is, is going
to carry its own technical ballot baggage
1:08:41 of implementation that you have to carry.
1:08:44 and so it's just a
difficult thing to balance.
1:08:48 what is that business model?
1:08:50 how can I implement this
business model in a way that the
1:08:52 customers are comfortable with?
1:08:54 Are comfortable with and even if
you figured out those first two,
1:08:58 sometimes the technical hurdle
to implement it is too big.
1:09:03 You know, like we said before, it's
trade offs all the way down and that
1:09:06 sometimes those, those trade offs,
even affect that business model
1:09:10 or even affect the payment model.
1:09:12 in terms of the platforms, given there's
multiple platforms and more than we
1:09:17 talked about so far, looking at the
history of Muse, you started on the iPad.
1:09:22 A bit later, there was a Mac app.
1:09:25 And, if I'm not mistaken, there
are at least plans to conquer a
1:09:29 few more platforms going forward.
1:09:32 I'm curious whether looking back, you
think this was the right sequencing
1:09:36 of platforms or whether you could have
seen like an entirely different path,
1:09:42 maybe going all the way with the web
first, looking at, I'm sure whether
1:09:47 you see it as a competitor or as a
similar app, something like TLdraw.
1:09:51 they have obviously started out
their journey all the way in the web.
1:09:54 And I think they're embracing the
openness and the, like, everyone
1:09:59 knows what to do with the link.
1:10:00 You click it and then you're already in
a new app without having to install it.
1:10:04 So entirely different
possibilities, trade offs.
1:10:08 So how did you think about the
sequencing of the platforms
1:10:12 and any regrets in that regard?
1:10:16 So we started out on the iPad.
1:10:18 And this was in the time, right before
I arrived at Muse where Inside of
1:10:24 Ink & Switch as part of its research and
as part of its kind of human computer
1:10:28 interaction design research was, what
does that tablet experience look like?
1:10:34 And what does it mean to have that
form factor to have a pencil where you
1:10:40 can write ink and to still be able to
type and manipulate with your hands?
1:10:44 How can we, how can we make
this interesting thing?
1:10:46 And so starting out on the, as the tablet
was really the heart and soul of Muse and
1:10:52 I, I can't see a way that you would get.
1:10:55 Muse without starting with that seed.
1:10:59 So I think that was, and yeah,
in many ways that, yeah, that was
1:11:03 the important place from there.
1:11:05 Where do we go?
1:11:06 I think, I think we did make the
correct decision to go to Mac next.
1:11:11 The iPhone was always kind of a helper
tool, for, collecting content and
1:11:16 for bringing things into your Muse.
1:11:19 The next big workhorse was the Mac app.
1:11:22 And I remember us thinking quite a bit, we
had some experiments for publish to web.
1:11:28 We had some experiments for
what would a web sync look like.
1:11:33 And this was one of the, I mean,
really one of the business and
1:11:38 resource, decisions and constraints.
1:11:41 In some ways forced our hands.
1:11:43 it definitely made the decision much
easier because the Muse Mac app shares.
1:11:50 95 percent of the code base,
with the iPad, the entire sync
1:11:54 engine code base, is the same.
1:11:57 all of the board rendering
and navigation is the same.
1:12:00 It has some differences in
window management and tabs and
1:12:04 toolbars and that sort of thing.
1:12:05 But broadly speaking, the code
base is able to be shared, which,
1:12:11 of course, dramatically lowers the
maintenance cost for our small team.
1:12:16 We thought about web for all the reasons
you've mentioned, but of course, that
1:12:21 would mean an entirely new code base or an
entirely new way to share the code base.
1:12:26 You can kind of cross compile swift
sometimes in certain circumstances,
1:12:31 but it was a much, much heavier lift
to have a full web sync platform.
1:12:37 We experimented with
publish to web, which has.
1:12:41 come on and off of the back burner a
handful of times over the years, and
1:12:45 it's something I would still love to
do so that way it would, it's easier
1:12:48 to share out content at the very least,
even if it's not a full Muse local-first
1:12:53 client on the web, there's at least
a way to take your local content
1:12:57 and publish it out for other people.
1:12:59 I think there's still value in that.
1:13:01 let me put it this way.
1:13:02 I think for us to be able to have
gone to a full web local-first
1:13:07 client, we would have had to have
taken dramatically more, investment
1:13:12 money, which would have dramatically
changed the entire shape of the app.
1:13:18 And audience for the app and purpose
for the app, in a way that might even
1:13:22 be, antithetical to, to Muse as a whole,
1:13:26 right.
1:13:26 Since I think the overlap of the audience
that Muse has as users and customers,
1:13:34 and the folks who use Apple products,
I think that's not a coincidence.
1:13:40 I think.
1:13:41 there's a lot of similarities and
the values, and sort of the pursuits
1:13:45 as the bicycle for the mind.
1:13:48 Like you've really like started pulling
on the thread a lot since like this
1:13:51 entire product is sort of a foundation
for the mind to be more powerful.
1:13:58 Yeah, I think if we had started today
instead of started, you know, five
1:14:01 years ago, six years ago, I think we
would probably make different decisions
1:14:04 just because we're in a different
world now than we were five years ago.
1:14:07 one thing that's very exciting is the
daylight computer, which was, android
1:14:11 based tablet, but share so many of the
Muse principles of, you know, calm, quiet.
1:14:21 Space, safe computing.
1:14:23 It's not advertising based.
1:14:24 It's not, you know, in your face, pop up
notifications and red badges and that sort
1:14:29 of thing, but it's very much designed for
kind of, purposeful, quiet contemplation.
1:14:36 So that device fits the Muse.
1:14:39 Principles and values perfectly,
but is, of course, android.
1:14:44 And so if we started today, I think we
have a very different discussion of, okay,
1:14:48 should we start on that device on android?
1:14:51 Should we start on ipad?
1:14:52 should we?
1:14:54 Use some sort of technology
that could cross compile.
1:14:56 So we can share code.
1:14:58 Like, I, I think it would be a very,
very different discussion than it was
1:15:01 with the options that we had 5 years ago.
1:15:04 the downstream implications of
choosing 1 platform or another are
1:15:08 just on such an enormous scale.
1:15:12 I've heard from a friend
who's been briefly working
1:15:15 at Humane where like Humane.
1:15:18 are all like ex Apple people, like
really brilliant ex Apple people.
1:15:23 And, well, it turns out the
software platform they've built is
1:15:27 on top of Android of all things.
1:15:30 So, and that has many, many consequences.
1:15:34 But, coming back to the, to the web, just
because that is, typically been my, my
1:15:39 home where I started computering and where
I'm still, spending most of my time on.
1:15:45 I'm wondering, how did, even
though you didn't get yet to
1:15:49 fully build it and ship it.
1:15:51 Given that the sync architecture,
as I understand it of Muse, it
1:15:55 started, as a local only app.
1:15:58 So all data was created
and lived on one device.
1:16:02 And with Muse 2, you've introduced a sync
server and that data could then, didn't
1:16:08 originate in the server still originates
on one device, but now through a server.
1:16:14 Is able to flow from 1 device to
another, but the server really has
1:16:19 no further role than to facilitate,
this transition and, maybe also
1:16:25 facilitates a backup in case a device.
1:16:28 gets lost or, something
else happens to it.
1:16:32 so in regards to the, to the
web, how did you think about
1:16:35 implementing that published web?
1:16:38 Since, one way I could imagine, where
you don't really, preserve user privacy
1:16:45 as much is that the server facilitates
this, that the server kind of like looks
1:16:50 at the sync information and compiles
a kind of like a snapshot out of that.
1:16:55 But I don't think you have that option
because everything is encrypted.
1:16:59 So is the logical implication of that,
that the snapshot that you want to
1:17:04 publish is actually created on the client?
1:17:07 Encryption
1:17:07 Yes.
1:17:07 So there's a couple of different things.
1:17:09 So the Muse server right now
is not encrypted at rest.
1:17:13 So it's not end to end encrypted.
1:17:15 Although it, the sync
protocol is designed for that.
1:17:17 We, we kind of put that option in there
for the future, but it was too heavy
1:17:21 of a lift at the time to fully do.
1:17:23 So theoretically, there would be
the ability to add web as a sync
1:17:28 option and connect into that.
1:17:31 however, it's still really important to
keep that end to end encryption as the
1:17:34 correct architecture and allow for it.
1:17:36 it's something we planned, to build
the entire time we had the team.
1:17:40 And it's something that's still on my mind
that I would love to be able to implement.
1:17:43 So that limits what we
thought about for the web.
1:17:47 One was that, we could share the link
and within the link that you share, Is.
1:17:53 The information for the key to
decrypt on the web, and then in your
1:17:59 account, you would be able to revoke
that key whenever you need it to.
1:18:03 So then you could share it.
1:18:05 Somebody with the link would be
able to load up, in the browser.
1:18:08 The browser would connect,
pull down the encrypted data.
1:18:11 It would have the key locally, be
able to decrypt in the browser and
1:18:14 show everything that you needed.
1:18:16 or later on you could, revoke that key
and then, anyone who loaded it up would
1:18:20 be able to download encrypted content,
but their key would no longer work.
1:18:23 So that was idea number one.
1:18:25 That strategy generally
requires the browser to load.
1:18:31 Your entire library or the entire
shared piece, which for quick
1:18:37 sharing of, Oh, Hey, let me
send you this thing real quick.
1:18:40 Let me just create a link real
quick, send it over to you.
1:18:43 You load it up in your browser
thinking we're going to collaborate
1:18:45 real quickly on this document I made.
1:18:47 and then you have to sit there for seven
minutes while it downloads all sorts of.
1:18:51 Encrypted things.
1:18:52 So your browser can decrypt it and
actually decide what's useful or not.
1:18:56 Right?
1:18:56 there's a whole other big pile of, very
difficult, local-first encryption, key
1:19:04 sharing problems that are a part of that.
1:19:07 And especially when you have lots
and lots of data, which many of the.
1:19:11 You know, Muse customers have lots
and lots of data that just makes that
1:19:15 problem exponentially more difficult
1:19:17 it's one thing if you wouldn't have
launched Muse yet and you can basically
1:19:22 design the system from scratch
with like all you can leverage all
1:19:26 the degrees of freedom how you can
build it but you don't just need to
1:19:30 build it all by yourself but now you
also need to migrate a live system.
1:19:36 from place A to place B and migrating
data, I think is still one of the
1:19:42 hardest things and one of the scariest
things that's even tricky to do it
1:19:47 with the comfort of a team setting,
but then doing this all by yourself,
1:19:53 that is no small undertaking.
1:19:55 Yeah, and I think it's as much about
the, you know, the kind of time in life
1:19:59 we are with local-first, trying to do
that today is going to be a lot easier
1:20:03 than it was trying to do it four or
five years ago and doing that five years
1:20:07 from now is going to be even easier.
1:20:09 And so, having the tooling and having
the patterns from other software and
1:20:14 having the systems built from other
software is really going to help.
1:20:19 Future creators kind of
stand on their shoulders.
1:20:22 So much of the new sync engine
we had to build from scratch.
1:20:25 And if we did encryption, we'd have to
build that from scratch, which is of
1:20:29 course, a huge, a huge lift and then
building multiple platforms from scratch.
1:20:34 So being able to use, Automerge
now, or some of the other libraries
1:20:38 now, lets folks start off in a much.
1:20:41 more comfortable place, or
capable place, than the starting
1:20:46 point we had five years ago.
1:20:48 And so that, that makes a difference too.
1:20:50 Right.
1:20:50 Which I mean, that's the question
you've been already paying so
1:20:53 much of the innovators tax here.
1:20:56 You've been had to innovate
and pioneer so much.
1:21:00 You had to roll your entire own
sync system, both client side server
1:21:05 side had to solve other problems.
1:21:09 Sometimes just without any reference
points where aside from using an off the
1:21:14 shelf technology, you couldn't even talk
to someone like, Hey, how, Hey, team
1:21:18 X, how did you, how did you solve that?
1:21:20 Looking back, maybe you would
have been faster not building
1:21:25 this in a local-first way.
1:21:26 Do you sometimes think about was
this the right decision to, to
1:21:33 Thinking a non-local-first Muse
1:21:33 Yeah.
1:21:34 It's something I think about a lot
because we, We paid a huge cost in terms
1:21:39 of developer time to build our sync
back end to build a sync on the iPad.
1:21:46 we're essentially building the network
protocol and an entire database layer,
1:21:52 just to get off the ground, right?
1:21:54 Just to start building the
product features on top of that.
1:21:56 So it's a huge cost.
1:21:58 There's probably.
1:21:59 A different path we could have taken.
1:22:01 if we had not gotten local-first, the way
that I think about almost everything is,
1:22:06 it would not have solved our problems.
1:22:07 It just would have changed our problems.
1:22:09 We, so we would just
have different problems.
1:22:11 I think it would have probably given us
some time back, but at the expense of.
1:22:16 a different sync issues
because sync is hard.
1:22:20 Sync is hard for local-first,
sync is hard for not local-first.
1:22:24 and I think for what Muse
is, offline capabilities and
1:22:30 a really fast local feeling.
1:22:33 Experience, were paramount, no matter
how that data got synchronized, whether
1:22:39 it was kind of a traditional sass app,
we would still want, a very reliable
1:22:45 and thorough cash on the local device.
1:22:48 so it would have just changed the
problems, but I, I don't know, I,
1:22:52 I, I think about this every couple
of months, but I always kind of land
1:22:55 on, I think we made the right call.
1:22:58 This was the right decision.
1:23:00 It was a difficult decision.
1:23:01 In the end, it didn't work out for the
company, you know, essentially in many
1:23:04 ways, which is unfortunate, but I'm, I'm
not sure that that was the, crux of it.
1:23:11 I don't think that was the reason.
1:23:14 That it couldn't work out
1:23:16 well, I'm very, very thankful and
happy that the Muse team early
1:23:22 on made all of those decisions.
1:23:24 it brought me on as someone who is just,
I came for the values and for the mission.
1:23:32 And for me, it would have, I use
like Miro and the past, et cetera,
1:23:36 like what really captured my
attention was sort of like the, yeah,
1:23:40 the thinking different about it.
1:23:43 And, I think you've stayed true to this.
1:23:45 And even though you had to pay so
much of that innovators tax and
1:23:50 surely, if you would have started
out today, like something like
1:23:53 Automerge is a, in a fantastic spot.
1:23:55 so you, the giant shoulders are
already in a pretty comfortable
1:24:00 spot to build on top off.
1:24:03 And yet there's other unsolved problems
today, particularly for the web.
1:24:07 so I think it's never the perfect time.
1:24:10 I think it's a matter
of like, is it a fit?
1:24:12 For who someone as a builder is,
do they feel comfortable, paying
1:24:18 a bit of that innovators tax and
then also reaping the benefits?
1:24:22 and I think ultimately it's a, it's a
journey that you're on and you should
1:24:25 figure out what is the sort of, the
analogy of the problem founder fit is
1:24:31 sort of like the journey builder fit.
1:24:35 And, that's something I think a lot
about, and I'm paying that, tax a big
1:24:40 time right now while trying to build
the actual product, the music app, I
1:24:44 also roll my entire data layer, which
includes the database, which includes
1:24:48 the sync system, includes networking,
cross platform and for the web.
1:24:53 So everything on hard mode.
1:24:55 But for me, the most important thing
is like enjoying it, enjoying the
1:24:58 journey and doing something that,
that feels like has a purpose.
1:25:02 so I'm, I'm very happy about that.
1:25:04 Yeah, exactly.
1:25:05 Exactly.
1:25:06 And I think that's really what
keeps me back coming to the,
1:25:09 yes, we made the right decision.
1:25:10 Because building that local-first sync,
was the right option at the time for
1:25:15 the technology options that were in
front of us that were on the table.
1:25:19 it really fit our values for the
kind of app we wanted, but also the
1:25:24 kind of data safety and privacy that
we want to be able to offer people.
1:25:28 I mean, like I said, even in that
worst case where I was not able
1:25:31 to carry Muse forward, the Muse
apps would have continued to be.
1:25:36 Functional and useful long into the future
because it was built on local-first.
1:25:42 And so that's the most important thing for
me to carry forward as a solo developer
1:25:46 is to keep those values, keep that
local-first value of this is your data.
1:25:53 It's on your device and you can
use it for as long as that device
1:25:56 still has a battery inside of it.
1:25:59 And, I think the benefits you get
from local-first, you do pay the huge
1:26:03 tax, but you get such a wonderful
reward for the capabilities that
1:26:07 local-first software, enables for you.
1:26:10 I think it's worth the trade off then.
1:26:12 I think it's worth the
trade off now and it's.
1:26:16 How I want to build software in
the future, you know, it's just
1:26:20 a wonderful world to live in.
1:26:21 I totally agree.
1:26:23 And the good news there is like
more and more of the hard problems,
1:26:27 have already been solved and are
continuously being addressed and solved.
1:26:32 So the entry ticket is
cheaper and cheaper.
1:26:35 And we are getting closer and closer to
that dream where all of like the caveats
1:26:40 are getting chopped off one by one.
1:26:42 Year after year, month after month,
this is also one of the big things
1:26:45 that has drawn me into the local-first
space that has just attracted for me.
1:26:52 already had the smartest,
and brightest minds.
1:26:55 And this is what really, gets me so
excited that there is just such a wealth
1:27:01 of problems that are worth solving that
the 2nd order effects of all of those
1:27:06 being solved, materially change software
and technology for humans in a way.
1:27:13 That I think almost no
other technology solves.
1:27:17 So, and yeah, thank you again for
being the inspiration that brought
1:27:22 me in and, brings in other people.
1:27:25 So, maybe ending on a note, what
are, what are you most looking
1:27:32 Adam's most awaited innovartions for 2025
1:27:32 well, I'm an engineer at heart.
1:27:33 So a lot of things that get me excited
are things that I want to build.
1:27:36 And, end to end encryption is exciting.
1:27:39 It's super difficult.
1:27:40 And it's one of those things that,
whenever you build, if you're
1:27:42 building encryption yourself, you're
doing it wrong, generally speaking.
1:27:46 so I think I probably won't be doing
end to end encryption anytime soon.
1:27:50 But instead, yeah.
1:27:52 I still want to solve
the problem of privacy.
1:27:55 I've had lots, in terms of people
being scared or uncomfortable or.
1:28:00 Unable to use a third party sync server.
1:28:03 I've had, lawyers reach out,
psychologists reach out, doctors
1:28:07 reach out and say, Hey, I love Muse.
1:28:09 It's super helpful for my work.
1:28:11 it is physically impossible for
me to put patient data in a thing
1:28:15 that lands on a third party server.
1:28:17 And in some cases it remains impossible.
1:28:22 Even if there's end to end encryption,
just solving that technical problem does
1:28:25 not necessarily solve their business
and privacy problem for their patients.
1:28:30 So instead, something I'm really
excited for is, peer to peer sync.
1:28:35 And so instead of going through a
Muse server at all, you can have
1:28:39 your iPad and your Mac synchronize
their full data together entirely
1:28:45 over local encrypted connections.
1:28:48 And so it's not talking to a server.
1:28:50 It's not talking to my server.
1:28:51 It's not talking to Amazon server.
1:28:53 It's not talking to anybody's server.
1:28:54 It is your devices inside of your home
on your Wi Fi talking encrypted over your
1:29:01 local Wi Fi to stay in sync together.
1:29:03 I think that to me really
embodies local-first and opens
1:29:08 up, even more opportunities.
1:29:11 For workflows and customers, that have
privacy considerations, I think that
1:29:16 solves the problem even more than kind of
a traditional SAS end to end encryption
1:29:22 would in many ways, because it fully
decouples Muse the app from Muse the
1:29:28 sync server, which is, I think the gold
standard for local for software is to
1:29:32 say, Hey, this is your, your device,
your stuff, your software, your data.
1:29:36 It syncs between your devices
like you don't need anybody else.
1:29:39 You just need to download
the software and away you go.
1:29:41 and so I, I love that vision
for the future for local-first
1:29:45 generally, but especially from you.
1:29:46 So I'm really hoping I can
dig into that this year.
1:29:50 I would love to, to be building on that.
1:29:53 I'm super, super excited to hear
you say that since it always just
1:29:58 like drives me crazy to have devices
have like my iPhone and one hand
1:30:06 and have maybe an iPad on my table.
1:30:08 Maybe there's some hiccup in the
internet connection right now.
1:30:13 And those two things, they're
not even separated by a meter.
1:30:16 they're just like completely
ignorant of each other existence.
1:30:21 And, with an app like Muse solving
that and allowing those to Talk
1:30:28 to each other who are clearly
in proximity to each other.
1:30:32 That should be both an inspiration
and also a provocation to
1:30:37 other apps to do better.
1:30:39 And I'm really, really excited about
not just for the sake of Muse users
1:30:44 who have a better time because of that.
1:30:47 And I think that's one of the
coolest things in terms of
1:30:50 like a new product version.
1:30:52 That all the features that you
know, in love before are still
1:30:57 working the same way, but now an
inherent limitation is just gone.
1:31:01 And it's like.
1:31:02 Obviously, it should have been like
that all along and, ideally inspiring
1:31:07 and provoking more apps, more builders
into falling on the same path.
1:31:13 Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
1:31:14 I think it's the, I'm a big believer
in local-first software and, there's
1:31:19 really no reason that, like you said, my
laptop sitting here should send its data
1:31:25 encrypted or otherwise to the Amazon U.
E. US East data center, just to have it
1:31:32 sent back to my phone, three feet away.
1:31:34 I like it.
1:31:35 We, we don't need to be doing that.
1:31:37 it's kind of silly.
1:31:38 And so keeping that data private
and keeping it local, I think you
1:31:42 end up getting better performance.
1:31:43 You get better privacy.
1:31:44 You get better.
1:31:45 you get better everything in so many ways.
1:31:49 I'm excited for it.
1:31:51 Outro
1:31:51 Hey, Adam, thank you so much for
sharing so much about your journey,
1:31:57 for five years now with Muse, I've
learned a lot more about the journey,
1:32:03 that has led to Muse and has led
through the various chapters of Muse.
1:32:08 I've taken away a lot here for, for
my personal journey, see a lot of
1:32:12 similarities, have a lot of empathy
for your journey and hopefully some
1:32:17 of the audience who are thinking
about, starting a similar journey.
1:32:21 Maybe there are on a, on
a similar journey already.
1:32:24 I've learned a lot.
1:32:25 I'm, I'm sure folks who are listening
have learned a lot and yeah, just
1:32:30 thank you for sharing all of that.
1:32:32 Yeah.
1:32:32 Thank you so much for having me.
1:32:33 always happy to chat and always,
especially to another, uh, local-first
1:32:37 developer, I empathize with you.
1:32:39 It's always wonderful to chat with
someone who a understand software, but B
1:32:43 understands, no, I don't work for Apple.
1:32:45 I know I'm, I have an app on
the App Store, but no, I just
1:32:49 understands the world that I live in.
1:32:52 So it's been wonderful.
1:32:53 Thanks for having me.
1:32:55 Thank you for listening to
the localfirst.fm podcast.
1:32:57 If you've enjoyed this episode and
haven't done so already, please
1:33:00 Please subscribe and leave a review.
1:33:02 Please also share this episode
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1:33:05 Spreading the word about the
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1:33:15 See you next time.