#20 – Adam Wulf: Muse

February 4, 2025

The guest of this episode is Adam Wulf, the engineer and solopreneur behind Muse, a local-first canvas-based tool for thought. This conversation will get trough the evolution of Muse as a product, company and people who made it, reflecting on the joys and struggles of building software as a team of one. Later, the conversation will dive deep into topics such as analytics and distribution of a local-first app.

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Thank you to Convex and ElectricSQL for supporting the podcast.

Transcript

#20 – Adam Wulf: Muse

00:00Even if it was out of our control and we had to just walk away and we didn't

00:03have time to, to land the plane softly.

00:07I think that's the wonderful thing about Muse and its architecture is

00:11everyone still would have been able to use Muse and still would have

00:14had access to all of their data and everything still would have worked.

00:17Even if the sync engine had gone offline, it wouldn't have been ideal,

00:22but that's the wonderful thing about local-first in the architecture we

00:26chose is the The kind of the worst case was actually still pretty good.

00:34Welcome to the localfirst.fm podcast.

00:36I'm your host, Johannes Schickling, and I'm a web developer, a

00:39startup founder, and love the craft of software engineering.

00:42For the past few years, I've been on a journey to build a modern, high quality

00:46music app using web technologies.

00:48And in doing so, I've been falling down the rabbit hole of local-first software.

00:53This podcast is your invitation to join me on that journey.

00:56In this episode, I'm speaking to Adam Wulf.

00:59The engineer and solopreneur behind Muse, a local-first

01:04canvas based tool for thought.

01:06In this conversation, we talk about the evolution of Muse as a product,

01:10company, and the people who made it, reflecting on the joys and struggles

01:15of building software as a team of one.

01:17Later, we're diving deep into topics such as analytics and

01:20distribution of a local-first app.

01:23Before getting started, also a big thank you to Convex and Electric

01:27SQL for supporting this podcast.

01:30And now my interview with Adam.

01:33Hey Adam, so nice to have you on the show.

01:35How are you doing?

01:36Johannes, really good.

01:38thanks for having me.

01:39I'm thrilled to be here, frankly.

01:41I had you on the backlog list for this podcast for a long, long, long time.

01:46And frankly, without you and another Adam Wiggins and Mark from the co founding team

01:52of Muse, this podcast probably wouldn't exist because the MetaMuse podcast

01:57has been a huge inspiration for me.

01:59I've learned so much about it.

02:01I'm still a bit bummed.

02:02That is currently on pause.

02:05Hopefully it's coming back at some point, but I wanted to dig

02:09deeper into all things local-first.

02:10This is why I've started this podcast roughly a year ago, and now I'm super,

02:15super excited to welcome you and the show.

02:17So for those who are listening, who don't know who you are, would

02:21you mind giving a background?

02:24Yeah, I'm Adam Wolf.

02:25one of the early members of the Muse team.

02:28I think number five, it was Adam and Mark, Julia and Lennart.

02:32And then I came on board, almost five years ago now, gosh.

02:36so it's been quite, quite a long journey, with Muse.

02:39And then of course, I've been solo for a bit over a year now.

02:42We can, we can get into all those details, but I've been a developer,

02:47an entrepreneur my entire career.

02:49So.

02:50Early in my career, I started on the web, co founded a web calendar startup,

02:55right before Google Calendar launched.

02:58And then, worked in enterprise software for a while, lived in Portland, Oregon,

03:05which I loved, the Pacific Northwest, in the States is absolutely beautiful.

03:10after that adventure, moved back to Texas, worked with

03:13Flexbits for quite a long time.

03:15I don't know if many of your listeners use, Fantastical, but it's

03:19a wonderful calendar app on the Mac.

03:21So I worked with them for, I think, five or six years.

03:26which was wonderful until Muse and then, jumped in on the Muse train

03:30and have been here ever since and I've, yeah, I've been loving it.

03:34Yeah, boy, I mean, already 5 years.

03:36I remember when I was sitting down with Adam Wiggins and he's been telling

03:41me about this idea for, for Muse and he showed me some first prototypes

03:45and, I was blown away by, like, We're just coming along at this point.

03:51And I think there wasn't really, there wasn't really

03:53the killer app for iPads yet.

03:56And, I remember how, like almost obsessed Adam was at this point with

04:01like, just trying to like use the pen.

04:03And I was like aware of the existence of the iPad pen, but for the metum for the.

04:09The Muse app, this is where it really clicked for me.

04:11Oh, like this meeting, this, this makes so much sense.

04:14And, yeah, that was five years ago.

04:17And since then Muse has gone through quite the journey.

04:21So, without going too much into it myself, maybe you want to walk us through, what

04:26did the last five years look like on a high level through the chapters of Muse?

04:30Yeah.

04:31Yeah.

04:32so Muse is now on version three, I think in some ways.

04:36You could chop it up into Muse 1, Muse 2 and Muse 3.

04:40Muse 1 was, iPad only.

04:44It was, local-first in a very direct way because there was no sync at all.

04:51All of your data just lived on the iPad and that was it.

04:54so it was just you and your iPad and your local data.

04:57It was just a private thinking space.

05:00Muse 2, we spent a lot of time building the sync engine, which it still runs on.

05:06And then that brought in Muse for Mac and still with the local-first roots.

05:13So all of the data lives on the Mac, all of the data lives on the iPad.

05:16And then our Sync server, helps keep those in in track together.

05:20And then Muse three, which we launched, in late 2024, was collaboration.

05:29And so still local-first, but now not only could you sync with all your devices, but

05:33you could start sharing and collaborating with other people in real time as well.

05:38And so those are the big pieces.

05:41since I live in the code, I often think of the chapters of Muse in that way.

05:46Like, how did the code change over those chapters?

05:49That's not the only thing that changed really, right?

05:52There's also like the people behind the code.

05:54Yes, exactly right.

05:55What are the chapters there?

05:57Exactly right.

05:58so I believe the very first chapter predated me.

06:01It was Mark.

06:03Adam and Julia were the three founding members at Ink & Switch, and it

06:09started there as a research project.

06:13And then after they decided, Hey, I think this has legs.

06:16Let's try and productize this.

06:18Let's pull this out and really make a go for it is when Lennart

06:22joined the team, as the designer.

06:25And so he came in, it was the four of them.

06:29I want to say Lennart was there maybe three to six months

06:32before they reached out to me.

06:35Might've been there a bit longer.

06:37I came in, gosh, 2020.

06:40everyone remembers that year and nobody wants to.

06:43so it was, it was right as the lockdowns were starting, right.

06:46As everything was, was going on.

06:49it was funny.

06:49I've, I've worked remotely for gosh, 15 years now, something like that.

06:55And so, Of course, everything changed in 2020, but, working

07:01remotely for an all remote team was a very natural thing for me.

07:05And so, it was a wonderful, distraction from the current events, of course,

07:11but it was just a wonderful team and a wonderful way to work after that.

07:14We brought in a couple new folks.

07:18Linda came in and Henry came in, Linda came in as a storyteller, to really

07:24help Adam, especially on the, the marketing side, kind of the web content

07:29side, she did lots for the website and helping tell the story of Muse and

07:36bring the story of Muse to more people.

07:38She did a lot on the, with the video and with YouTube and, really great work there.

07:43That was.

07:44essential, I think, for Muse.

07:46And then Henry came on at an important time, building the, the Go server, which

07:52is the backbone of the sync engine.

07:55So he and Mark really carried the load on the server.

08:00Building that

08:01and I think it's worth noting that at that point, Muse, unlike the way how it

08:07operates today, at this point, it was really more like a traditional startup

08:12where, they, they brought in venture funding to build up that team and to

08:17get this off the ground before there was a product that had revenue, et cetera.

08:21So that was the foundation that this was even possible to

08:25bring on all of those people.

08:26Right.

08:27Yes, that's right.

08:28Yeah.

08:28I think I'm trying to remember.

08:30I don't remember the numbers.

08:31So don't ask me how much, how much we raised, but we did raise from, quite a few

08:35angels, Adam and Mark, at the beginning, brought in a significant portion.

08:41I think even by the end, they were the primary investors.

08:45But it was that investment money that let us grow that team and, build from,

08:51from scratch, which is gosh, one of the hardest things about building any

08:54new software product is either you don't have any investment and then

09:00it's just you working alone in your garage, trying as hard as you can,

09:04going as fast as you can, which is often

09:06what I'm doing right now.

09:07Not necessarily in a garage, but still, yeah,

09:09yeah, exactly.

09:10I think lots of people do that.

09:11I've done that quite a few times in my career.

09:14And, A lot can come from it, but of course, your, your velocity, you know,

09:19the speed at which you can develop is constraint with time and money.

09:24and so having, having those investors early on was a huge

09:27help to be able to grow the team and get that vision out there.

09:30Of Muse within those first few years

09:34and to kind of foreshadow already the next second big chapter in Muse's

09:39history at some point, Muse, the founding team, et cetera, including

09:45you made some pretty big changes.

09:48So tell me more about that.

09:51So it was, mid to late 2023, I think actually this whole time,

09:56as I've been talking, I've.

09:57I've had my years backwards.

09:59So it's 2023 when this is happening.

10:01Not 2024.

10:032024 was, after all of this, it was mid to late 2023.

10:06We realized, this is not able to sustain the team.

10:11And so what are we going to do?

10:14there's a couple of different options.

10:16the obvious one is.

10:19Peace out.

10:20We enjoyed it.

10:21The whole thing shuts down and the lights turn off and good luck to everybody.

10:27We, we didn't want to do that.

10:29we know we love the app.

10:31We'd love to be able to continue using it, even if we just had to use it offline.

10:34But we wanted to at least a graceful way for all of the existing users

10:39to either continue using the app.

10:42And at the very least, like table stakes was.

10:46Muse is local-first, the entire purpose and premise is, is having local access

10:53to your data and protecting your data.

10:55And we want to make sure that that continues regardless of what

10:58happens to the app on the App Store and all the other things.

11:01How can we make sure that, people still have all of the

11:04wonderful work that they've put in

11:07exactly and to just, draw like one bridge to, last year's Local-First Conf,

11:12where Martin Klepman gave the keynote.

11:14I'm not sure whether you've seen the keynote.

11:17and I highly recommend anyone who's listening to check it

11:20out if they didn't see it.

11:21But he was pointing to one aspect of local-first, which he calls,

11:26our incredible journey proof.

11:29So since for a lot of ambitious startups, at some point, the lights go out and

11:34there's a last block post that comes along with it, which is our incredible

11:38journey, either being acquired by company X and the product gets shut down or

11:42product just gets shut down like that.

11:45And.

11:46Martin framed it as such that local-first apps should be in our incredible journey

11:51proof, which is a very nice way to put it.

11:54And I think that's exactly the bar that you've just meant that

11:58you've motivated that you want to hold yourself accountable to.

12:02Exactly, exactly.

12:03And I think even if, you know.

12:06Even if it was out of our control and we had to just walk away and we didn't

12:10have time to, to land the plane softly.

12:13I think that's the wonderful thing about Muse and its architecture is

12:17everyone still would have been able to use Muse and still would have

12:21had access to all of their data and everything still would have worked.

12:24Even if the sync engine had gone offline, it wouldn't have been ideal,

12:28but that's the wonderful thing about local-first in the architecture we

12:32chose is the The kind of the worst case was actually still pretty good.

12:40The worst case was actually still pretty good.

12:41And it was way better than kind of the usual, startup company that disappears.

12:48But we really talked about, okay, how, how can we actually do even better?

12:50How can we land this plane softly?

12:52How can we make sure that everyone gets the data they need?

12:55We could, spend the last few months building export tools and integration

13:00tools to help people get their data out.

13:02Before the server shuts down.

13:05and I offered and said, I'm entrepreneurial.

13:09I've done this sort of thing a lot.

13:11I know we haven't been able to build legs enough to carry the whole team,

13:15but I think that as a single person, I can keep this alive and I can

13:20keep this, I can keep carrying that torch and keep carrying that dream.

13:24so I put, I put my name in the hat.

13:26We.

13:27kept looking, we looked, we talked with, some potential acquirers.

13:31We talked with, of course, Ink & Switch.

13:33we tried lots of different things.

13:36Adam Wiggins has a blog post that really talks through, the whole story of Muse

13:43and especially that last chapter of Muse.

13:45So if people haven't read that, you can look, find that on his website too.

13:49and so, the team talked and.

13:52That's what we decided to do.

13:53We decided to say, hey, if there's a chance that we can keep this thing

13:55alive, then yeah, let's, let's find a way to, to be able to hand it over to,

14:02to me, to try and keep carrying forward.

14:04And so, the official transition date.

14:08was early October 2023.

14:11I got the year right this time.

14:13So, yeah, about 15, 16 months ago.

14:16So it's been, it's been a long time and I was thinking just recently,

14:19like, oh, my gosh, I cannot believe it's been over a year already.

14:23but yeah, I've been, it went from a team of 7 to a team of.

14:27Just me, that, that early October and, that was a transition.

14:33I can tell you that.

14:34That was, it was, it was rough for all sorts of reasons.

14:39I think it's super fascinating because this has given Muse a second life

14:45and a second life that, I really haven't heard of other startups,

14:50products, et cetera, who've.

14:53been on a similar path.

14:55I thought about it in a way where the initial joint team effort, the

15:00investment resources, et cetera, has kind of gotten Muse into escape velocity

15:07and on some sort of, trajectory.

15:10That now, that you're out in outer space where you need less resources

15:15to just keep, keep on the path.

15:18now you can keep going by yourself.

15:20That's obviously not something that can be easily repeated

15:23since typically the intention of investment is to make a big multiple.

15:29And I think that might be no longer the assumed path for yourself.

15:33So, I think you're now in a much more sustainable path.

15:36So, in a way that gave you a unique opportunity.

15:40So, I'm, I'm curious, what were the most surprising things for you over the

15:44last year or so since that transition?

15:47Man, so many things.

15:49It has been, such a wonderful year and such an incredibly tough year.

15:53And I think there's so many things throughout the entire five years

15:58that I can look at and really enjoy.

16:01And the older I get, the more I realize that You know, life has chapters and

16:06that there are moments in time and then those, you know, enjoy them or you don't.

16:09And then the moment is gone.

16:11And so I, I look back and, the early years with the team was amazing.

16:18the Muse team by far has been the best group of folks I've ever worked with.

16:22just an incredible team in terms of just the people, but also the

16:27interesting technical, problems that we all over came together and,

16:32Transitioning from that very supportive team, and just very efficient team.

16:38We worked, we worked really well together.

16:40we made decisions well together and we moved forward together.

16:43Well, to suddenly be solo was, it was a tough transition And, kind of

16:50to use that metaphor where, because it's local-first, and because we're

16:56You know, a small scrappy team.

16:58We're not, you know, professional house builders that build

17:02neighborhoods every week.

17:04Like, we're a bespoke house builder.

17:06And so then, we've built this wonderful house, and then

17:10the rest of the team leaves.

17:12And, I suddenly have to find out, like, huh, why, why is that pipe knocking?

17:17Or, oh, there's this weird leak over here.

17:19Or, huh, yeah, I forgot.

17:21I do need to vacuum this room once a week.

17:23Or, you know, like, I I don't know where the metaphor ends, but you see

17:26where I'm going there's, it used to be able to be maintained and, and held

17:31up by the team of seven that we were.

17:34And then suddenly to be holding it all by myself, because this happened

17:38right at the time we launched Muse 3.

17:41So right as collaboration changed, that came with a pretty

17:46sizable database migration.

17:48For users where the local corpus, the local database they had on

17:55their devices needed to be migrated as well as their synced data on

18:00the server needs to be migrated.

18:01So there are lots of new moving parts and any big new release comes with.

18:07You know, exciting new bugs.

18:10that, that was by far the, one of the hardest transitions ever was, everyone

18:16packed it up really nicely and handed me the box and said, good luck out there.

18:20but then suddenly to be standing there holding the box with all the stuff and

18:24realizing, okay, like, I've got to do this, you know, I've got to hold on.

18:29And so it was, it was a big transition those first few months.

18:32Lots of support tickets, lots of code, lots of bug fixes and all the usual

18:37suspects, in terms of a big new release, none of the bugs were huge or terrible.

18:42It was just lots of little bitty things

18:44and typically Just after launch, this is where you have increased everything.

18:49Like you have increased bugs, bug reports.

18:52You have increased messages that you need to respond to increased public

18:58things that you need to comment on, like make sure to leverage the

19:03positive buzz, et cetera, respond to more critical things, et cetera.

19:07And that would have been hard enough.

19:09To pull off, with, the full house, but now you've got to take on like all of

19:14those increased, issues by yourself.

19:17So hats off to, to having, obviously having gone through that.

19:21Yeah.

19:22Yeah.

19:22Thanks.

19:22And, I mean, hats off to the team as well for, for helping that transition

19:27because every single one of them knew that this was the process, you know, that

19:31last month, that last two months and.

19:35Everyone put in a tremendous amount of work to help that transition go smoothly.

19:39And so I owe, so much to their work through that transition.

19:46to make that possible.

19:47I mean, it was huge.

19:48It couldn't have been done literally by just me.

19:50It was the team that helped that transition go through and.

19:55Yeah, it was, but it was a, yeah, it was a tough spot because of course,

19:58there's a huge, a huge blog announcement of "Muse is closing", but not really.

20:03We're not closing.

20:04By the way, here's a giant new release.

20:06By the way, here's a bunch of new press and here's a bunch of new

20:09users and feedback and questions and all that kind of stuff.

20:12And so, yeah, it was.

20:13It was a lot to, reply to all of those things and fix the bugs and try and

20:20prioritize as, as best as I could.

20:22So, like you say that that's a, that was a long and big transition, but I think

20:28now you seem to have made it quite cozy for yourself in that, new old house.

20:34so how did you go about just making things sustainable for yourself where

20:39I think you just need to Come to grips to like a new kind of pace and cadence

20:44for what is a realistic roadmap?

20:46How do you slice and dice your week into, this is the time I allocate to support.

20:52This is the time I allocate to marketing.

20:55This time I allocate to bugs.

20:58sometimes just unexpected things happen and you might be suddenly

21:03facing a bug that is really critical.

21:06But might be like of the shape of three weeks.

21:09how did you handle those sort of situations?

21:12Yeah, I think, I think the biggest change was as a team, we were fighting for scale.

21:21And so the biggest thing that we needed to do was find large numbers of people.

21:28That fit Muse, so that we could grow revenue dramatically.

21:32So that means the kinds of things that we're focused on are broadly

21:37speaking, of course, new outreach, new features, of course, we said like

21:42the majority of 2023 was focused on teams and that was in collaboration.

21:48And that was because that gave us an entirely new customer segment.

21:51That we could potentially go after everything has trade offs and so in,

21:57in reaching for those new, customer segments, we're building new features,

22:02which necessarily means that time spent on bug fixes or small improvements or

22:10small tweaks, things like that, are second place to the big new features

22:16because the big new features bring in.

22:18A bigger quantity of new people than the incremental smaller fixes would.

22:25That I think is the biggest thing that has changed because then going solo, I

22:30don't, I don't have the resources to try and reach for enormous new audiences.

22:36The most important thing to me going solo is, okay, I built this house.

22:41Let me make sure everyone's happy living here.

22:43Let me make sure all of the current customers are happy.

22:46the.

22:47Kind of professional user, the solo user who kind of thinks

22:52privately and deep thinks in Muse.

22:55That's their, their cozy place to kind of retreat to and think through.

23:00That's my core customer.

23:01I don't need to expand beyond that.

23:04And so the big shift was, then focusing on, okay, let me take every time a

23:11support ticket comes in, that's a priority because as a single person,

23:17I don't have near as much time.

23:19To handle support tickets.

23:21What was a very low percentage of support time for seven people became a very

23:26high percentage for one person, right?

23:29And so, so as a single person, I can't, I just can't dedicate that

23:33much time to support, which means I needed to prioritize all of those

23:39little things that people would.

23:42email in about, man, I can't even think of them now, but you know, just small little

23:46like, huh, isn't it weird that when I tap over here, this other thing lights up.

23:50Can we just not have that happen?

23:51And that's been a bug that's been there for three or four years, but kind of

23:55doesn't matter because it's just a little thing and people work around it.

23:58But.

23:59When it's a, you know, a little burr on the edge, when it's, when it's just a

24:02little rough area that kind of collects support tickets, that's what I focused

24:08my attention on those first few months was, okay, how can I smooth out all of

24:11these edges that we had known about, but we're never the priority of the

24:18team because as a team, we were focused on the bigger sustainability question.

24:24And now that that big sustainability question had essentially been answered,

24:28that's what I needed to focus on was all of the small little tasks.

24:31And so, you know, card alignment was one.

24:34And so now there's a little keyboard command to just, shift

24:37cards and into card alignment.

24:39Um, a few.

24:41You know, small little bugs with selection or with the way of the cards worked or,

24:46one that, that I, put out, I don't know, relatively recently was, links to apps,

24:52app links, as opposed to web links.

24:54So there's a handful of other apps that quite a few folks use with Muse that have.

25:00Local app links, and they'd like to be able to drag those in and create cards.

25:03And so smoothing out the URL card, the link card flow in Muse to better support,

25:08various things, things like that, right?

25:09Like it's taken individually, no one would notice them, but then taken collectively,

25:14it actually makes a significant impact on the support load, which then frees

25:18up a bunch of time to say, okay, now, now what do I want to think about?

25:21What's the next big step,

25:23but that makes so much sense to me.

25:25And just to reflect on this also a little bit in regards to, to my

25:29personal journey, working on Overtone and working on, on Livestore.

25:34I also didn't have the luxury to work on all of this, kind of

25:37in parallel with, distributing the work across an entire team.

25:42I think of myself as single threaded.

25:44I need to work on things sequentially.

25:47And the longer I'm working on one thing, the more I'm starving another thing.

25:51So I need to be like very, very careful of what I'm putting my

25:55effort on and what I'm taking on.

25:57And, also, if.

26:00What I'm working on, if my attention is sort of like a bucket, if there's

26:04like, if there are holes in it, and every time I'm trying to do something,

26:08but it's constantly dragging me down, I need to plug those holes first, since

26:12it's not just hurting maybe someone else who has a bad time using this, but I'm

26:16also having a bad time and one thing I've really noticed about myself is

26:20like, I really need to, prioritize for my own velocity and my own happiness.

26:26Working on this only with that, I can build momentum and keep the energy up

26:30since I think that's probably also, something that, you've experienced

26:35going from a team to working solo.

26:37Like a team provides sure, like, sometimes a team can be, there can be some things

26:43that, take energy away from you, but a good team and you had a fabulous team.

26:48Gives you so much energy and now you need to, be sort of like on

26:52subsistence, economy for like, you need to, make sure that you bring

26:57in your own energy and anything that erodes that energy is so critical.

27:02So, yeah, I have a huge amount of admiration for like, how you've been

27:07able to, to go, and what you've been mentioning in terms of maybe you didn't

27:11for the longer time work on some bigger parts, but just making all of those,

27:17you already had a big part done in the past as the foundation of Muse.

27:21And now working on like making everything smooth, ironing out the little kinks.

27:27And I think that's the best case scenario for Muse users because

27:32now things are getting better.

27:33It's already in a shape that as a Muse user, that's what I wanted.

27:37And, I think also one of the biggest, question marks of like,

27:41is this app going to go away long term has also been answered.

27:45So I think Muse, as long as it's sustainable for you, I

27:48think it's a fantastic outcome for, a product like Muse.

27:53So I'm, I'm very happy about that.

27:55Yeah, exactly.

27:56I think you've summed it up perfectly.

27:57it's as much about.

27:59Muse the business, of course, and to make sure that that stays sustainable, but.

28:04It has to be sustainable.

28:06for me as a single person as well.

28:08And so prioritizing which of the holes in the bucket do I need to prioritize

28:14for my own sanity sake, regardless of what everyone else needs, right?

28:17It's just either taking up too much of my time or it's too much of a drain.

28:20the community has been wonderful.

28:23and, there's a discord community where, lots of the folks chat.

28:27And so they'll bring up.

28:29Some really great ideas.

28:30They've been a wonderful way for me to bounce my own ideas off of to

28:35say, Hey, I'm thinking about this.

28:36What do we think about this?

28:37I've noticed people have asked about this.

28:39because the biggest part for me of losing that team is, losing

28:43the people to talk with right?

28:46Like, when you live on a deserted Island all by yourself, you go crazy.

28:49You need other people to talk with.

28:53And so the community has, has helped fill that role for me in many ways to, to be

28:59the sounding board, which has been great.

29:01And

29:05then prioritizing those gave me my time back.

29:08In terms of the support load, because those are the tickets I prioritize first,

29:12and then I was able to say, okay, now, from the business standpoint, what is

29:17it I need to do for Muse as a business, as opposed to Muse as a customer for

29:23customer support or personally or anything else and this past year, 2024,

29:30I focused on two things primarily.

29:32The first one was Setapp integration, so I don't know if your listeners

29:38are familiar with Setapp.

29:39It is essentially an alternative App Store.

29:42You subscribe for a monthly fee and then for that single monthly

29:48subscription, you get access to everything in their library, every app.

29:51So Muse is now one of those apps.

29:54And the way that's, that's Setapp, I don't want to get into the weeds about

29:59the, how they manage the business and revenue share and all that kind of stuff.

30:03But the point is, is out of that monthly subscription, it is revenue

30:07shared with the applications that that user actually uses.

30:11And so if they change what they use months, month to month, the

30:15revenue share changes month to month.

30:18And so it feels fair to you as the app creator.

30:21Yeah, so it's fair to me as the app creator because I get paid based on usage.

30:26it's also fair based on kind of the type of app.

30:29And so what would be.

30:32A 99 cents a year menu bar app in the App Store, takes a smaller share than Muse,

30:38which is a significant, subscription.

30:41And so it's fair, both for time spent and for, the revenue split.

30:47Which is great.

30:48And so that has been wonderful because it has brought in an entirely new wave

30:54of subscribers who would otherwise never purchase a subscription because

31:01they're on Setapp specifically because they don't like subscriptions.

31:05So they're going to have one to Setapp and use everything inside of Setapp

31:09instead of having 7 or 10 or 12 on the App Store that they manage individually.

31:15And then similarly, the people that do have individual subscriptions are

31:18typically not the people that are going to have a Setapp subscription.

31:22And so it's really, you know, the Venn diagram has very little

31:25overlap, which, brought in a.

31:29completely new segment of customers, which was helpful.

31:32Where do you, yourself fall into this Venn diagram and how did you arrive at that?

31:38This is integrating with Setapp actually deserves to be like on

31:43your roadmap for a given year, since there's only so many things you can do.

31:46So choosing your priorities is really, really important.

31:50How did you arrive at, prioritizing working on a Setapp integration?

31:54Yeah, it was an important piece because so throughout the life of Muse, the early

32:00years revenue grew and then that last probably year and a half revenue declined.

32:08and so as I took Muse over solo revenues, declining month over month.

32:13And so every time I'd wake up on the first of a month, I would have less

32:18money coming in than the month before.

32:20Right.

32:21which is fine in the short term, but obviously like everyone knows

32:26where the, where the slope intersect.

32:28hits the zero axis.

32:31So that that was a big priority was okay.

32:35How can I, how can I change this trajectory?

32:40it needs to not be going down.

32:42And so focused on, new revenue and new customers was a very important.

32:49Piece of solving that.

32:51And that has been, really my guiding principle over the past year was out of

32:57all of the App Store users, how can I. You know, take a very kind of traditional

33:04product management approach and measure.

33:08I get this many people from App Store browse.

33:10I get this many people on the product page in the App Store.

33:13I get this many downloads.

33:14I get this many people putting their email address in.

33:16I get this right.

33:17Like you can go down the entire, the entire funnel.

33:21And where people getting stuck, where is it confusing?

33:24Where's the biggest drop off between people who think, oh, yeah, maybe

33:27I'll get this thing Muse a try.

33:29Oh, it looks neat.

33:31And then sometime later they go, eh, no, thanks.

33:34Right?

33:34Like, why did, why did they go?

33:35No, thanks.

33:36Like, what, what was the miss?

33:38So I focused a lot on, that on what's called the bottom of the funnel.

33:43So after they download, after they log in, what is that first time user experience?

33:47And there's still quite a bit more that I'm, I'm still focused on there.

33:50And the other thing I worked on this past year was Setapp, which was top of the

33:55funnel, bringing in a completely new pile of users that had otherwise essentially

34:01not had access to Muse because they would never use it on the App Store.

34:05And so the combination of those two things has really helped flatten that decline.

34:10And so the Muse revenue over the past year has stopped, declining so

34:14dramatically and has really started to level off, which is important.

34:18So from use going forward over this coming year, the goal, of course, is to

34:24continue that trend and start growing again, start growing that user base.

34:28And that's going to be, more of that same strategy more, of course,

34:31at the bottom of the funnel.

34:33There's lots of things I still want to improve about the first time user

34:35experience, first time onboarding, kind of early customer education with a website.

34:42we used to have a, a wonderful video handbook that showed all of

34:46the fantastic gestures in Muse.

34:48So building something like that again to help, to help new users

34:51become familiar with the very unique.

34:53interactions that Muse has, as well as some things at the top of the funnel

34:57to bring in more, more customers.

34:59but I think holding all of those perspectives in my mind has been one

35:03of the weirdest things and I think is one of the most difficult things about

35:07being a solo entrepreneur because with a team, of course, you can say, okay,

35:13this other person is going to handle, you know, broadly speaking, they're

35:17going to be the marketing person.

35:18They're going to handle the funnel.

35:19They're going to think about partnerships.

35:20They're going to think about content, marketing and social

35:23media and all that kind of stuff.

35:25I get to focus as an engineer on just the sync engine and just a lot of the problems

35:29and just bugs and customer support.

35:32And this other team member gets to write, like, obviously you separate your

35:35concerns, but when you're working on your own, You have all of those concerns

35:40in your head at the same time and a lot of times those compete with each other.

35:43that's been a very, I don't know that there's a correct answer.

35:46I've kind of, come to my, my Zen place and realized that I cannot do it all.

35:54I cannot do what I want.

35:55I don't have enough time to do what I want.

35:57And frankly, I don't have enough time to do what I need.

36:00So it's, you know, I, I can only prioritize as best I can, but

36:04there is way too much on the plate.

36:09And so I, I've just had to accept that, you know, sometimes I'm going

36:12to pick stuff up off the plate and it's going to be a mistake.

36:16Oops.

36:17Let's get back to it and go to the next thing and keep pushing forward and

36:20prioritize as best I can, which, was another kind of realization over this past

36:25year was just the act of prioritizing.

36:28Takes away from the time you have to do right?

36:32And so everything, everything is a trade off.

36:34Deciding what to work on is a trade off.

36:36Working on it is a trade off.

36:38Like you're always giving up something.

36:39that has been.

36:41Easily the hardest, the hardest piece of doing this alone,

36:44there's a few aspects to this that might not be super intuitive unless you've done

36:49them, which is if you are so far, mostly like the engineer, or you're mostly,

36:55someone who's working in marketing or doing something else, you don't really

36:59do like the context switching between switching between the entire modes.

37:04I think this might be most intuitive to a founder who has started out by

37:08themselves or with a very small founding team in the early days where you're

37:12switching between the hats constantly.

37:14But that context switching is a double-edged sword.

37:17It might, the positive side is that through the perspective of engineering.

37:23You might have a much more informed perspective now to be more effective

37:27with your marketing hat on, but also that context switch, doesn't come

37:32for free that might, when you come back into engineering, you might've

37:36already forgotten a lot about the context that you had before.

37:40and another thing that I've actually for my own health.

37:43sake, mental health sake, I actually give a quite a bit of weight in

37:48terms of prioritizing what I work on.

37:50in terms of what I feel I have the most energy for, what do I feel like

37:55I have the most inspiration for?

37:57This might be not the most, if, if someone is like super structured, like

38:03a very rational mathematical in terms of like, okay, by all of those metrics,

38:08this is the most important thing.

38:10I might still work on this.

38:12Second or third, most important thing, just because I know I'm going to have

38:16so much more energy working on that and I can build up momentum this way.

38:20So this is something I've, I've seen for myself that this works the best

38:25factoring into, into my decision making on like what to prioritize.

38:30I can totally see how this is one of the hardest things in, in your journey.

38:35but given that you're still on this journey, I assume you're, the kind of

38:39person who sees the glass half full.

38:42So, I'm curious, like, what were some of the highlights of the last, or

38:47since this new chapter, transitioning from Muse as a team to Muse as a

38:51solo endeavor, what have been some of the, like, the true highlights?

38:56the piece over the past year, year and a half that I have loved the

38:59most by far is, I've started two things and they're, they're related.

39:04So, in some ways, they're just one big thing.

39:06I call it the Muse for Muse interviews.

39:10And so Muse, of course, means inspiration, right?

39:13So, like, who is the inspiration for Muse?

39:16It is all of the people that are, that are using Muse.

39:19It is the new people that are just finding it and are excited to get that,

39:23where it just really fits for them.

39:25there are still so many that have used Muse since, you know, version one, since

39:31it was just a, twinkle in the eye and test flight and hadn't even been out to the App

39:36Store yet, but were the very, very first.

39:38Kind of test users.

39:40Do you call them users?

39:42Uh, yeah.

39:43So I was talking with my wife and she, she called them Musers

39:47instead of users, which is fun.

39:50So yeah, but I've started, scheduling interviews and saying

39:55like, Hey, I just love to, to learn.

39:57What do you do every day?

39:58How does Muse fit into your workflow?

40:01what else, what other apps do you use?

40:02What have you also, have you tried?

40:04What really grinds your gears?

40:07What are those little rough edges for you that are just annoying, but kind of don't

40:11matter, but just take you out of the flow.

40:13Maybe a little bit.

40:14Those have been wonderful, both just for the energy and the excitement

40:19to hear from them and, to hear how Muse is making a difference in

40:24their workday and in their flow.

40:25And then, and it's also, wonderful because you can start seeing patterns

40:30and the way that, people react and that the types of things that they bring

40:35up dark mode is a common one, right?

40:37Like there's so many times in support where I still get requests for dark mode.

40:41And so this coming year, I would love to do something for dark mode.

40:45but as an example, as I'll talk with somebody on one of these

40:47interviews, maybe it'll be 30 minutes, sometimes an hour on a zoom call.

40:52It won't just be an email that says, dear Adam, please make dark mode.

40:56Thanks.

40:56Bye.

40:57Right.

40:58But I, I actually hear, Oh, this is where they're doing it.

41:02This is why they want dark mode because they're in this library or

41:05in this class, or they have this thing or who knows what, right?

41:09Like, another one I get is, Oh, please enable more zoom options.

41:13Okay, great.

41:14Right.

41:14Like that's, that's a neat feature.

41:16But then when you're talking with somebody and they're talking about how,

41:19Oh, The font size in this scenario is actually a bit too small or sometimes

41:24when I don't have my glasses on or my readers on the other side of the room,

41:28I'd really like to be able to zoom.

41:29And so you start hearing how the accessibility feature that

41:34to an engineer's mind is just a feature really fits into the day

41:38and really fits into the flow.

41:40And so that's been super inspiring.

41:42And you might also find some things that were just, you as an engineer

41:46note, oh, this is such a small thing.

41:48You just haven't done it yet.

41:49And it might for someone who's using it, just make all the world of a difference

41:55to them from taking the app from like.

41:57being wished for that they couldn't use it to actually using it on a daily basis.

42:03And it brings, like I say, it brings so much energy and motivation to you

42:07as a builder to hear those stories and like, knowing, okay, here's Alexandra

42:12over there and Alexandra is like loving it in this use case, and I didn't

42:17ever, plan for that and it's happening.

42:19And that, that's great.

42:21Yeah, exactly.

42:22Exactly.

42:23And so that's something that, mean, early in Muse's life, of course, it

42:26came from research and so user studies and user interviews and interactions

42:32and stuff were a huge part of early Muse's life and, and really a huge

42:36part of, of its early success.

42:39I started doing these interviews, probably about four months

42:42ago, something like that.

42:44And gosh, with the impact they've already had over those four months,

42:47I wish I'd done it on day one.

42:49You know, and I wish we'd done it, every day since then.

42:52And so a big piece of going forward is how can I get a consistent flow, especially

42:59a brand new users coming into Muse?

43:01And what is that brand new user experience and then a consistent flow

43:05of longer term users, because I don't want to over optimize for the long

43:11term users, because then no new people are ever going to be able to fit.

43:15But I also don't want to over optimize for the new users, because then

43:17they're going to be super happy for 6 months until they're a long term user.

43:21And they find out that long term user problems are never solved.

43:25So it's a balance of making sure that I'm.

43:28Like, I mean, like we said, a thousand times already, it's trade offs kind

43:32of all the way down, but having those interviews with real people using

43:37the app in a real experience and just talking to them about their life and

43:40about their flow, no matter what stage they're at, whether it's earlier or long

43:45term has been really, really valuable.

43:48And I think that the second thing that I'll bring up that has been.

43:53Just a big joy and kind of a wonderful, wonderful new thing.

43:58I'm starting, highlights for how different people use Muse.

44:03And so we have one, that was just posted.

44:06that's up on our YouTube.

44:08the Muse YouTube channel with, Conrad Levely, and how he uses

44:12Muse as part of his, research.

44:15So he has a whole handful of different apps that he uses to

44:18explore various different topics.

44:20he's retired and as part of his day now, he just loves learning and

44:25loves researching and loves reading.

44:27And so it is about how he uses Muse in that workflow and over the coming

44:33months, I'm going to be releasing more of these and inviting more, both

44:36long term and, and new Muse users, to share how Muse fits into their life.

44:41Cause that's something I've heard consistently from folks is boy, I really

44:46love Muse, but I'm really curious.

44:48it's such kind of an abstract tool.

44:50Am I using it right?

44:52I think this makes such a huge difference that someone is aware of a certain product

44:59and think it's cool, but then they think, okay, what does it have to do with me?

45:04And then move on and just seeing sort of the usage scenarios, since like,

45:10obviously that person who's using it seems to have figured something

45:14out, that makes them more effective, productive, joyful, more in the flow.

45:21And, I want to be like that, but, I need to see it first before I can

45:26connect the dots and say, ah, yeah, this is how it fits into my life.

45:30Exactly.

45:31Yeah.

45:31Muse is such a flexible tool.

45:33It's a, you know, you hand somebody a stack of paper and everyone's going to

45:36do something different with that paper.

45:38Someone's going to bind a book and someone's going to make post it notes and

45:41someone's going to make a small journal and someone's going to sketch, you know?

45:43And so, I think there's a lot of inspiration that can happen seeing

45:47how different people, use Muse and seeing all of the different

45:50ways it can fit into your flow.

45:51And fit into your day.

45:53So, yeah, I think those 2 things have been the biggest piece for me is interviewing

45:58and then, also just highlighting and then being able to share, how community

46:03members use Muse with the rest of the community has been wonderful.

46:07So both the interviews as well as the highlights are very strong on terms of

46:13the anecdotes of a particular person and you can still remember that.

46:18But the.

46:20flip side, that's the anecdotes and then the other part is like actual data,

46:25that can inform how you're prioritizing, working on something, et cetera.

46:30And that can be, I, for me, anecdotes are a lot more intuitive and I've tried to

46:36measure enough things that I know, okay.

46:40Those measurements are always, only like a partial picture.

46:43Sometimes you, particularly in a local-first context, you don't

46:48want to just like flip on telemetry for every user where privacy

46:52is really important, et cetera.

46:54So how do you modulate between or prioritize between anecdotes versus

47:00data and how do you even have you done anything to measure things?

47:05And how did you go about that in a local-first context?

47:09Yes.

47:09So data is interesting because It's so easy to collect

47:14enormous amounts of usage data.

47:17Was this feature used?

47:18Yes or no.

47:19How many times per day was it used?

47:21Was it used this week?

47:22You know, was it used in the first month of the person?

47:25Doing it or only after a month to, you know, like you can, you can slice

47:28things a million different ways.

47:30so in products past, I have often said, well, I don't know what's important.

47:37So I'm just going to collect a bunch of data and I'll figure it out later.

47:39And then later comes around and I have a huge pile of data that

47:43I don't know how to look at.

47:45And it's just overwhelming.

47:46So I wanted a completely different path this time on, this was December, 2023.

47:53So a handful of months after taking over Muse, I'd already done a lot on bug fixes.

47:59It was starting to kind of get, okay, new users are happy, existing users are

48:03happy, the fires small as they were, they've been put out for the new release.

48:08Let's look at the data and figure out what's important.

48:10What do I need to look at?

48:12so in times past, I've had way too much data and I didn't know how

48:17to pull out the answers from it.

48:19And so this time with Muse, I've been very purposeful about saying, what are

48:23the important questions I need answered?

48:25Let me clarify to myself.

48:27What do I actually care about?

48:30What is the most important thing that I need?

48:32And then let me go collect data specifically to answer this question.

48:36And that's it.

48:37And maybe that data could be used for other questions too.

48:39And there's all sorts of different stuff there, but I'm very purposefully

48:43limiting what I look at to only the questions I know matter.

48:50And so the biggest question, that I had initially going into it was that customer

48:55funnel, how many people hit, hit the App Store page, how many people download,

48:59how many people log in, how many people.

49:02subscribe, and then there's kind of a, a middle one, which I call activation.

49:06So between logging in and subscribing, it's, are they

49:10getting value out of from Muse?

49:12Like, have they done something that they've at least played with it enough

49:17that yeah, it seems to be, they understand what they're saying yes or no to.

49:21So the first thing I did is I downloaded, We, we don't use

49:26generally any third party trackers.

49:28So all of the data we have about user behavior is on the Muse server

49:33and is not shared with anyone else.

49:35So it's not used for advertising or for, you know, various other things.

49:40that's been a very important piece.

49:42And so I've been able to look at that.

49:44Kind of feature usage data.

49:46We don't collect any data in terms of what are you physically typing into Muse?

49:51It's all about, did you use note cards?

49:53Did you use links?

49:54Did you use boards?

49:55That sort of stuff, right?

49:56Do you pull this out out of the sync data or is that a separate thing that's

50:01completely separate from the sync?

50:03It is completely separate.

50:05And so, and there are no circumstance in my poking around inside of sync data.

50:11that is a hundred percent kind of.

50:13Private tucked away.

50:15And then there's a separate piece that is just product usage data.

50:20And so that, and that collects none of the personal information

50:24that you're putting into Muse.

50:25It's only collecting.

50:27You know, sort of, did you click this button or not kinds of data so the

50:31first thing I did is I downloaded, did people use this feature?

50:35Yes or no, across 30 different features, 30 different, 40 different things.

50:41And then did this person subscribe or not?

50:43And I gave me a giant table of data that I looked into and

50:47said, okay, which of these.

50:50features using which of these features is or is not correlated with subscribing

50:56and I narrowed it down to, I think, six and so if people use all six of

51:01these features, then they are more likely to subscribe than not and.

51:07What that means to me is, it's obviously not just, okay, great, let me go force

51:13everyone to do these six things and then clearly they're going to subscribe more.

51:17No, what it means is that, okay, doing these six things gives them a

51:21real good feeling for what Muse is.

51:23And once they have a good feeling for what Muse is, those kinds of people are

51:26going to more often than not subscribe.

51:29So I have that activation.

51:31That's what I call activation.

51:32so the report that I run connects to, app figures, which connects to

51:36the App Store for App Store metrics.

51:38I can also connect to the App Store directly because there are sometimes

51:42information that I want to get kind of the raw data for instead

51:45of app figures, aggregated data.

51:47I connect to the Muse server to get, more detailed analytics about subscription and

51:52about activation and things like that.

51:54and I connect to the, we use Fathom for website analytics.

51:59So it is a very privacy conscious website analytics tracker.

52:04And so that gives me number of visits, number of click

52:06throughs, things like that.

52:08so I pull all this data from three or four or five different sources.

52:11And then together that gives me full visibility from number who see the

52:17website, click through the App Store, download link all the way down.

52:21And so once I have that data, that's when I can say, okay, let

52:25me look at new user onboarding.

52:27What happens if I provide this kind of video, or if I provide this kind of

52:33tutorial, or if I change this kind of thing, is that better or worse for this

52:39single step from download to activation?

52:42Not even caring how it affects subscriptions or anything else, but

52:45like, can I just change this metric?

52:48and so the times I've done this over the past year, year and a half

52:53have been for onboarding, of course.

52:55So the first tutorials that people can get.

52:58Also, Setapp has helped because Setapp takes out the subscription altogether.

53:05And so then that very last step from download to log in to

53:09activation to subscription p user.

53:12The only thing I need to care about is download to log in to

53:16activation once they're using these consistently, then that's when

53:20Setapp recurring revenue comes in.

53:22so that was important on the Setapp side.

53:24On the App Store side, I implemented, sign in with Apple because Muse requires

53:31an account, for the sync server.

53:34That means the first time download experience, people load up Muse and they

53:38see, hi, give me your email address.

53:40Muse is very conscious more than I think almost any other company I've

53:45seen or worked with about privacy.

53:47But when the first time user experiences.

53:50Hey, buddy, give me your email address.

53:52It doesn't, it doesn't inspire confidence.

53:54and so I implemented sign in with Apple and then that lets people

53:57say, okay, let me use that.

53:59I can choose a private email address.

54:01I can maintain my privacy, but still kind of create the account that allows

54:06for them use sync service to work.

54:09So that helps the download to login step of that entire funnel flow.

54:15And so it's been rewarding to.

54:17focus on very specific places in that funnel and say, okay, this piece right

54:23here, right after the download, what kind of context does that person have?

54:27What do they need?

54:28What would be helpful?

54:29maybe new images in the App Store or maybe.

54:32better tutorials on the website, or maybe, you know, fill in the blank, but how

54:37can I get this from 92 percent to 96%?

54:42And then in theory, that will also have downstream effects at the bottom of the

54:45funnel, but if for whatever piece that I'm looking at, that is the biggest.

54:50problem that has been very helpful from a prioritization standpoint.

54:55And that has been very helpful, to keep me focused because they're, you know,

55:00like I've said before, there's too many things for me to work on that I

55:04have time in my life to physically do.

55:07And so when I am building, it can be motivating and really helpful

55:11for me to say, Okay, Adam, remember, you're focused on helping this

55:15person at this step in their journey.

55:17they would love to use Muse, but they can't because they're stuck.

55:21And so you're going to help them.

55:22How how can you help this kind of person get unstuck?

55:25and see what Muse is so that they can decide whether it's a good fit for their

55:28life or not and for their workflow or not.

55:30and so that's been very helpful to collect very specific, and still

55:36privacy preserving data that helped me make decisions in terms of that.

55:41That flow, there's a handful of other statistics I look at in terms

55:44of like App Store revenue or Setapp revenue, subscription counts,

55:49cancellations, those sorts of things.

55:51But broadly speaking, that funnel data has been the most important and

55:55for prioritizing my, my work and in the world of data, it's a very small

56:00piece, compared to the data pile.

56:03I've seen at other companies or in previous things, it's it's

56:07really helped keep me focused.

56:09In terms of Muse being a local-first app, as opposed to being like a more

56:14traditional, cloud based SaaS app.

56:18Is there anything that you thought about different when it comes to,

56:23getting better insights through data into how users are using it?

56:27So, there's this interesting balance between, uh, local-first really tries to

56:31preserve the privacy, a user and you with the best intentions of like, Building this

56:38app for the people who you want to serve.

56:41And yet you need a little bit of visibility into this.

56:44Have you thought about this for Muse differently than for previous apps?

56:49And did you build the analytics stack from a technological

56:52perspective in any different way than you've built previous ones?

56:57Yeah.

56:57So when I, joined Muse, in 2020, the analytics stack that's still being

57:02used was built already and that was, implemented entirely on the Muse server.

57:09So that way, none of the analytics data went to a third party.

57:13It kind of stayed within Muse.

57:15And so that was very helpful.

57:16And then, like I mentioned before, that analytics data that we collect is

57:22entirely separate from the actual synced data of a person's library in Muse.

57:30Is there still like the same sort of identity behind it or

57:34how does, user privacy preserving look like at that point?

57:38Do you, for example, like have something that is, identifying a user, but you

57:43hash it so you can't like, correlate it anymore or, how are you going about that?

57:49Yeah, so it does use the same user ID.

57:54And so I can see, which is helpful for our support tickets.

57:57And so when a support ticket comes in, I can see, obviously, when the person

58:02signed up, if they're subscribed or not.

58:05And I can also see, which devices they have synced to the sync server and how

58:11recently those devices were connected.

58:13Because far and away one of the most common support requests I get

58:18is Usually a one line email that says: Hey, sync, is it working?

58:21Or, Hey, there's a problem with my iPhone.

58:25Uh, how can I fix it?

58:27And so I can immediately look and say, okay, I don't see an

58:30iPhone on their account, clearly it's not connected correctly.

58:34And so that helps me reply.

58:36but that, that is kind of the only connection is that user ID.

58:39So I do see.

58:41User behavior, and then there's a separate bucket that has all the user synced data.

58:46But the most important guiding principle through the entire life of Muse has

58:51always been, the user's synced data, their library data is off limits.

58:58It, there's just, it's just never looked at.

59:01It's never looked at by a human and it's never looked at by a robot either.

59:06Like we don't run analytics on it.

59:08We don't run scripts to see how things do like it is.

59:13It is its own little box in the closet that is not touched.

59:17And then that way, the only data that we see that is used for analytics

59:22is, the feature usage data that we specifically send, that does not

59:27contain any of the actual library data.

59:30None of the text, none of the ink, none of the boars, none of the content,

59:33none of that kind of stuff lands there.

59:35It's just, oh, they made a board card.

59:37Okay, great.

59:39I need to know if people make board cards or not, because if

59:41they don't, what are they doing?

59:42Because Muse is based around boards and whiteboards.

59:45Yeah, I think it's this interesting balance where with local-first, we

59:50obviously want to move beyond the status quo of how software is being

59:54built traditionally yet, or in terms of how software is deployed and

1:00:00architected in a way traditionally, but yet a lot of the more traditional.

1:00:05Product management learning still apply.

1:00:08Like we still don't want to fly blind.

1:00:11We still need to understand what the users are doing, et cetera.

1:00:14So there is a slight tension there between still like knowing how are

1:00:20our users successful with the app?

1:00:21Are they struggling?

1:00:23Where are they falling off?

1:00:24And yet, The, that the user's private data is sacred and you don't touch it yet.

1:00:29You don't even have a way to look into it as it's encrypted, et cetera.

1:00:34So I'm curious, like what will the ideal analytics stack for local-first

1:00:39apps, maybe look like in the coming years to have some intuitions or some

1:00:44wishes for like, this is what the ideal stack there would look like.

1:00:48And someone should build it.

1:00:49I think the way that we've done it at Muse, is a really good

1:00:53first step and is, is really good.

1:00:55I think it's, table stakes for the way that any business should operate where

1:01:00the user's private data is on one side of the world and the data you use for

1:01:05analytics and for product decisions is on the other side of the world.

1:01:09And those two just never meet.

1:01:11because there's no, situation where any kind of product person should

1:01:15have any kind of visibility at all into someone's private data.

1:01:20And so that, I think, is the most important piece, that was there from day

1:01:25one at Muse and continues today at Muse.

1:01:28collecting as little as possible, I think, is also important.

1:01:31And, that's been true with Muse where the third, it's so easy to

1:01:38say, Oh, look, a new data provider.

1:01:40Let me just go like, let me go integrate mix panel.

1:01:44Let me go integrate apps fire.

1:01:45Let me go integrate, you know, you could put in four or five SDKs and

1:01:49suddenly start sending out analytics to five different advertising companies

1:01:54with like three lines of code, right?

1:01:56Like it's very easy to do.

1:01:59and I think being very cautious and purposeful about what kind of data

1:02:04you're collecting and making sure you're doing it to answer specific

1:02:08questions is really important.

1:02:10And that's what I've done at Muse over the past year and a half.

1:02:14And that's what we did at Muse in the years before that as well is making

1:02:19sure that we, the data we do collect.

1:02:21stays just within Muse and doesn't leak off to other third party

1:02:26advertising, firms, and that we use that data responsibly and that one

1:02:32of the ways that we do that is that we don't collect more than we need

1:02:36and we don't collect private things.

1:02:38Your private data doesn't land in the product decision repository, and

1:02:43that's, I think should be table stakes for any company, but especially for

1:02:47local-first, where, where privacy is, is job number 1 and is really purpose number

1:02:521 in many ways of local for software.

1:02:54So slightly shifting gears a little bit to another aspect where we need to

1:03:00kind of reinvent the wheel, a little bit for local-first software, which

1:03:04is how do you charge for software?

1:03:07And I think in your case, I think you have a somewhat easier, foundation

1:03:13for that already, given that you started in the Apple ecosystem where

1:03:18you can say many things about the Apple App Store, et cetera, like

1:03:22how it charges an arm and a leg.

1:03:24But, at least from the user perspective, there's already a well trotting path

1:03:30for how are you going to get some money and now you've extended on top of that

1:03:36with Setapp, I think a lot of other local-first apps are built primarily

1:03:42starting from the web, where I think it's a lot more challenging, but yeah, how

1:03:47much of a easy versus difficult part was the getting actually paid for working

1:03:54on the app and, do you have thoughts on, what that could have looked like

1:03:59when you would have started in the web?

1:04:01Yeah.

1:04:02I think my default is to always think about things in terms of the almost

1:04:07every single time I go back to the customer funnel, which is essentially

1:04:10what it was, the customer experience.

1:04:12As you mentioned, the nice thing about the Apple ecosystem

1:04:14is the customer experiences.

1:04:16Oh, do I want this or not?

1:04:19One tap on the subscribe button, the prompt comes up and it's

1:04:22either face ID or a fingerprint.

1:04:24And then,

1:04:27so it's essentially like one and a half steps from decision to money on the web.

1:04:33It's often significantly harder, and that is, okay.

1:04:37Do I want to do it?

1:04:38Okay.

1:04:38Yeah.

1:04:39Let me go click in.

1:04:40Okay.

1:04:40probably have to choose a plan.

1:04:42Let me choose a plan.

1:04:43Okay.

1:04:43Well, now I have to enter my credit card information.

1:04:46Okay.

1:04:46Now it wants my address.

1:04:47Well, now it wants my billing address, which is the same as my address, but

1:04:51it has a separate, separate field.

1:04:52And so then I click okay, and then it gives me the summary

1:04:54and then I click checkout.

1:04:55Right?

1:04:56So suddenly that's like a four or five step

1:05:00regardless of the, even separate from the decision of, is this a

1:05:04subscription or is this a one time payment or relatively one time payment?

1:05:09so the biggest thing that I think about is how can you make

1:05:11that experience much simpler?

1:05:14and how can you make that experience trustworthy and the nice thing about

1:05:20the App Store is it gives you both.

1:05:22It is trustworthy because it, the purchase is the exact same every

1:05:25single time and it goes through Apple.

1:05:28So people don't have to trust me.

1:05:30They can just trust Apple and on the web, you have to overcome both barriers.

1:05:35You have to become trustworthy enough that someone says, why should I put

1:05:39my credit card in this random website?

1:05:41And you have to make it simple enough that.

1:05:44On step three out of seven, they don't say, man, this is so much trouble.

1:05:49actually nevermind.

1:05:51part of it, some, I think Patreon helps with some of that,

1:05:54subscriptions help with some of that.

1:05:57sometimes even if it's a web based service, there might be, iPhone app

1:06:02components to it or Android app components to it, or native Mac components to

1:06:06it, helper apps, things like that.

1:06:08And sometimes those could be paid for even when the web is free.

1:06:12it, it really depends per business, but it's difficult.

1:06:16Like that's, that's one of the hardest things, especially as an independent

1:06:20software developer to decide what your business model is, is a difficult

1:06:27decision to physically implement all of the infrastructure to make that business

1:06:31model possible to take someone's money.

1:06:33Is difficult and then finding out, huh, this payment provider has four steps, but

1:06:40if I'd use this other payment provider, it would have been two and a half steps.

1:06:43Should I spend another 2 months moving?

1:06:45I think this is sort of a reoccurring theme that, to pull off local-first.

1:06:51is very hard and to pull it off in the web is the hardest mode so far, since,

1:06:57not just from the perspective of having all of the technical capabilities that

1:07:03a native platform provides that you have it in the web, it gets increasingly

1:07:07better with things like the file system APIs, WASM, et cetera, but on macOS.

1:07:14At some point you click on that download button, maybe you've paid before, maybe

1:07:18afterwards, and now you have a DMG file.

1:07:21And that is, you can still put it on a floppy drive if

1:07:24you want to, and that's yours.

1:07:27That's hopefully still gonna work.

1:07:28It's most likely still gonna work unless it's like all sassified.

1:07:32But in the web, you have like, Visited a website before and in Safari, if you

1:07:38haven't visited that in so long, it's going to like wipe all of your cash.

1:07:44So what is the equivalent of a DMG?

1:07:46And then you haven't even started about payment.

1:07:49so that's a lot harder.

1:07:50And I think you've been, smart about choosing, or I guess that's just

1:07:55been inherently an implication of The beginnings of Muse to start in

1:08:00the Apple ecosystem where you could, sort of sidestep a bunch of the still

1:08:06open questions around local-first software by, like piggybacking on a

1:08:12more mature ecosystem in many regards.

1:08:14Yeah, absolutely.

1:08:15I think that's the, that's easily the hardest part about.

1:08:19Building any new product is the technical challenges of whatever platform

1:08:23you're on, the customer challenges of finding a way for them to pay.

1:08:28in a way that is fair for them, and they are comfortable

1:08:32with, and that is trustworthy.

1:08:34And whatever that process is, is going to carry its own technical ballot baggage

1:08:41of implementation that you have to carry.

1:08:44and so it's just a difficult thing to balance.

1:08:48what is that business model?

1:08:50how can I implement this business model in a way that the

1:08:52customers are comfortable with?

1:08:54Are comfortable with and even if you figured out those first two,

1:08:58sometimes the technical hurdle to implement it is too big.

1:09:03You know, like we said before, it's trade offs all the way down and that

1:09:06sometimes those, those trade offs, even affect that business model

1:09:10or even affect the payment model.

1:09:12in terms of the platforms, given there's multiple platforms and more than we

1:09:17talked about so far, looking at the history of Muse, you started on the iPad.

1:09:22A bit later, there was a Mac app.

1:09:25And, if I'm not mistaken, there are at least plans to conquer a

1:09:29few more platforms going forward.

1:09:32I'm curious whether looking back, you think this was the right sequencing

1:09:36of platforms or whether you could have seen like an entirely different path,

1:09:42maybe going all the way with the web first, looking at, I'm sure whether

1:09:47you see it as a competitor or as a similar app, something like TLdraw.

1:09:51they have obviously started out their journey all the way in the web.

1:09:54And I think they're embracing the openness and the, like, everyone

1:09:59knows what to do with the link.

1:10:00You click it and then you're already in a new app without having to install it.

1:10:04So entirely different possibilities, trade offs.

1:10:08So how did you think about the sequencing of the platforms

1:10:12and any regrets in that regard?

1:10:16So we started out on the iPad.

1:10:18And this was in the time, right before I arrived at Muse where Inside of

1:10:24Ink & Switch as part of its research and as part of its kind of human computer

1:10:28interaction design research was, what does that tablet experience look like?

1:10:34And what does it mean to have that form factor to have a pencil where you

1:10:40can write ink and to still be able to type and manipulate with your hands?

1:10:44How can we, how can we make this interesting thing?

1:10:46And so starting out on the, as the tablet was really the heart and soul of Muse and

1:10:52I, I can't see a way that you would get.

1:10:55Muse without starting with that seed.

1:10:59So I think that was, and yeah, in many ways that, yeah, that was

1:11:03the important place from there.

1:11:05Where do we go?

1:11:06I think, I think we did make the correct decision to go to Mac next.

1:11:11The iPhone was always kind of a helper tool, for, collecting content and

1:11:16for bringing things into your Muse.

1:11:19The next big workhorse was the Mac app.

1:11:22And I remember us thinking quite a bit, we had some experiments for publish to web.

1:11:28We had some experiments for what would a web sync look like.

1:11:33And this was one of the, I mean, really one of the business and

1:11:38resource, decisions and constraints.

1:11:41In some ways forced our hands.

1:11:43it definitely made the decision much easier because the Muse Mac app shares.

1:11:5095 percent of the code base, with the iPad, the entire sync

1:11:54engine code base, is the same.

1:11:57all of the board rendering and navigation is the same.

1:12:00It has some differences in window management and tabs and

1:12:04toolbars and that sort of thing.

1:12:05But broadly speaking, the code base is able to be shared, which,

1:12:11of course, dramatically lowers the maintenance cost for our small team.

1:12:16We thought about web for all the reasons you've mentioned, but of course, that

1:12:21would mean an entirely new code base or an entirely new way to share the code base.

1:12:26You can kind of cross compile swift sometimes in certain circumstances,

1:12:31but it was a much, much heavier lift to have a full web sync platform.

1:12:37We experimented with publish to web, which has.

1:12:41come on and off of the back burner a handful of times over the years, and

1:12:45it's something I would still love to do so that way it would, it's easier

1:12:48to share out content at the very least, even if it's not a full Muse local-first

1:12:53client on the web, there's at least a way to take your local content

1:12:57and publish it out for other people.

1:12:59I think there's still value in that.

1:13:01let me put it this way.

1:13:02I think for us to be able to have gone to a full web local-first

1:13:07client, we would have had to have taken dramatically more, investment

1:13:12money, which would have dramatically changed the entire shape of the app.

1:13:18And audience for the app and purpose for the app, in a way that might even

1:13:22be, antithetical to, to Muse as a whole,

1:13:26right.

1:13:26Since I think the overlap of the audience that Muse has as users and customers,

1:13:34and the folks who use Apple products, I think that's not a coincidence.

1:13:40I think.

1:13:41there's a lot of similarities and the values, and sort of the pursuits

1:13:45as the bicycle for the mind.

1:13:48Like you've really like started pulling on the thread a lot since like this

1:13:51entire product is sort of a foundation for the mind to be more powerful.

1:13:58Yeah, I think if we had started today instead of started, you know, five

1:14:01years ago, six years ago, I think we would probably make different decisions

1:14:04just because we're in a different world now than we were five years ago.

1:14:07one thing that's very exciting is the daylight computer, which was, android

1:14:11based tablet, but share so many of the Muse principles of, you know, calm, quiet.

1:14:21Space, safe computing.

1:14:23It's not advertising based.

1:14:24It's not, you know, in your face, pop up notifications and red badges and that sort

1:14:29of thing, but it's very much designed for kind of, purposeful, quiet contemplation.

1:14:36So that device fits the Muse.

1:14:39Principles and values perfectly, but is, of course, android.

1:14:44And so if we started today, I think we have a very different discussion of, okay,

1:14:48should we start on that device on android?

1:14:51Should we start on ipad?

1:14:52should we?

1:14:54Use some sort of technology that could cross compile.

1:14:56So we can share code.

1:14:58Like, I, I think it would be a very, very different discussion than it was

1:15:01with the options that we had 5 years ago.

1:15:04the downstream implications of choosing 1 platform or another are

1:15:08just on such an enormous scale.

1:15:12I've heard from a friend who's been briefly working

1:15:15at Humane where like Humane.

1:15:18are all like ex Apple people, like really brilliant ex Apple people.

1:15:23And, well, it turns out the software platform they've built is

1:15:27on top of Android of all things.

1:15:30So, and that has many, many consequences.

1:15:34But, coming back to the, to the web, just because that is, typically been my, my

1:15:39home where I started computering and where I'm still, spending most of my time on.

1:15:45I'm wondering, how did, even though you didn't get yet to

1:15:49fully build it and ship it.

1:15:51Given that the sync architecture, as I understand it of Muse, it

1:15:55started, as a local only app.

1:15:58So all data was created and lived on one device.

1:16:02And with Muse 2, you've introduced a sync server and that data could then, didn't

1:16:08originate in the server still originates on one device, but now through a server.

1:16:14Is able to flow from 1 device to another, but the server really has

1:16:19no further role than to facilitate, this transition and, maybe also

1:16:25facilitates a backup in case a device.

1:16:28gets lost or, something else happens to it.

1:16:32so in regards to the, to the web, how did you think about

1:16:35implementing that published web?

1:16:38Since, one way I could imagine, where you don't really, preserve user privacy

1:16:45as much is that the server facilitates this, that the server kind of like looks

1:16:50at the sync information and compiles a kind of like a snapshot out of that.

1:16:55But I don't think you have that option because everything is encrypted.

1:16:59So is the logical implication of that, that the snapshot that you want to

1:17:04publish is actually created on the client?

1:17:07Yes.

1:17:07So there's a couple of different things.

1:17:09So the Muse server right now is not encrypted at rest.

1:17:13So it's not end to end encrypted.

1:17:15Although it, the sync protocol is designed for that.

1:17:17We, we kind of put that option in there for the future, but it was too heavy

1:17:21of a lift at the time to fully do.

1:17:23So theoretically, there would be the ability to add web as a sync

1:17:28option and connect into that.

1:17:31however, it's still really important to keep that end to end encryption as the

1:17:34correct architecture and allow for it.

1:17:36it's something we planned, to build the entire time we had the team.

1:17:40And it's something that's still on my mind that I would love to be able to implement.

1:17:43So that limits what we thought about for the web.

1:17:47One was that, we could share the link and within the link that you share, Is.

1:17:53The information for the key to decrypt on the web, and then in your

1:17:59account, you would be able to revoke that key whenever you need it to.

1:18:03So then you could share it.

1:18:05Somebody with the link would be able to load up, in the browser.

1:18:08The browser would connect, pull down the encrypted data.

1:18:11It would have the key locally, be able to decrypt in the browser and

1:18:14show everything that you needed.

1:18:16or later on you could, revoke that key and then, anyone who loaded it up would

1:18:20be able to download encrypted content, but their key would no longer work.

1:18:23So that was idea number one.

1:18:25That strategy generally requires the browser to load.

1:18:31Your entire library or the entire shared piece, which for quick

1:18:37sharing of, Oh, Hey, let me send you this thing real quick.

1:18:40Let me just create a link real quick, send it over to you.

1:18:43You load it up in your browser thinking we're going to collaborate

1:18:45real quickly on this document I made.

1:18:47and then you have to sit there for seven minutes while it downloads all sorts of.

1:18:51Encrypted things.

1:18:52So your browser can decrypt it and actually decide what's useful or not.

1:18:56Right?

1:18:56there's a whole other big pile of, very difficult, local-first encryption, key

1:19:04sharing problems that are a part of that.

1:19:07And especially when you have lots and lots of data, which many of the.

1:19:11You know, Muse customers have lots and lots of data that just makes that

1:19:15problem exponentially more difficult

1:19:17it's one thing if you wouldn't have launched Muse yet and you can basically

1:19:22design the system from scratch with like all you can leverage all

1:19:26the degrees of freedom how you can build it but you don't just need to

1:19:30build it all by yourself but now you also need to migrate a live system.

1:19:36from place A to place B and migrating data, I think is still one of the

1:19:42hardest things and one of the scariest things that's even tricky to do it

1:19:47with the comfort of a team setting, but then doing this all by yourself,

1:19:53that is no small undertaking.

1:19:55Yeah, and I think it's as much about the, you know, the kind of time in life

1:19:59we are with local-first, trying to do that today is going to be a lot easier

1:20:03than it was trying to do it four or five years ago and doing that five years

1:20:07from now is going to be even easier.

1:20:09And so, having the tooling and having the patterns from other software and

1:20:14having the systems built from other software is really going to help.

1:20:19Future creators kind of stand on their shoulders.

1:20:22So much of the new sync engine we had to build from scratch.

1:20:25And if we did encryption, we'd have to build that from scratch, which is of

1:20:29course, a huge, a huge lift and then building multiple platforms from scratch.

1:20:34So being able to use, Automerge now, or some of the other libraries

1:20:38now, lets folks start off in a much.

1:20:41more comfortable place, or capable place, than the starting

1:20:46point we had five years ago.

1:20:48And so that, that makes a difference too.

1:20:50Right.

1:20:50Which I mean, that's the question you've been already paying so

1:20:53much of the innovators tax here.

1:20:56You've been had to innovate and pioneer so much.

1:21:00You had to roll your entire own sync system, both client side server

1:21:05side had to solve other problems.

1:21:09Sometimes just without any reference points where aside from using an off the

1:21:14shelf technology, you couldn't even talk to someone like, Hey, how, Hey, team

1:21:18X, how did you, how did you solve that?

1:21:20Looking back, maybe you would have been faster not building

1:21:25this in a local-first way.

1:21:26Do you sometimes think about was this the right decision to, to

1:21:30build back then already local-first?

1:21:33Yeah.

1:21:34It's something I think about a lot because we, We paid a huge cost in terms

1:21:39of developer time to build our sync back end to build a sync on the iPad.

1:21:46we're essentially building the network protocol and an entire database layer,

1:21:52just to get off the ground, right?

1:21:54Just to start building the product features on top of that.

1:21:56So it's a huge cost.

1:21:58There's probably.

1:21:59A different path we could have taken.

1:22:01if we had not gotten local-first, the way that I think about almost everything is,

1:22:06it would not have solved our problems.

1:22:07It just would have changed our problems.

1:22:09We, so we would just have different problems.

1:22:11I think it would have probably given us some time back, but at the expense of.

1:22:16a different sync issues because sync is hard.

1:22:20Sync is hard for local-first, sync is hard for not local-first.

1:22:24and I think for what Muse is, offline capabilities and

1:22:30a really fast local feeling.

1:22:33Experience, were paramount, no matter how that data got synchronized, whether

1:22:39it was kind of a traditional sass app, we would still want, a very reliable

1:22:45and thorough cash on the local device.

1:22:48so it would have just changed the problems, but I, I don't know, I,

1:22:52I, I think about this every couple of months, but I always kind of land

1:22:55on, I think we made the right call.

1:22:58This was the right decision.

1:23:00It was a difficult decision.

1:23:01In the end, it didn't work out for the company, you know, essentially in many

1:23:04ways, which is unfortunate, but I'm, I'm not sure that that was the, crux of it.

1:23:11I don't think that was the reason.

1:23:14That it couldn't work out

1:23:16well, I'm very, very thankful and happy that the Muse team early

1:23:22on made all of those decisions.

1:23:24it brought me on as someone who is just, I came for the values and for the mission.

1:23:32And for me, it would have, I use like Miro and the past, et cetera,

1:23:36like what really captured my attention was sort of like the, yeah,

1:23:40the thinking different about it.

1:23:43And, I think you've stayed true to this.

1:23:45And even though you had to pay so much of that innovators tax and

1:23:50surely, if you would have started out today, like something like

1:23:53Automerge is a, in a fantastic spot.

1:23:55so you, the giant shoulders are already in a pretty comfortable

1:24:00spot to build on top off.

1:24:03And yet there's other unsolved problems today, particularly for the web.

1:24:07so I think it's never the perfect time.

1:24:10I think it's a matter of like, is it a fit?

1:24:12For who someone as a builder is, do they feel comfortable, paying

1:24:18a bit of that innovators tax and then also reaping the benefits?

1:24:22and I think ultimately it's a, it's a journey that you're on and you should

1:24:25figure out what is the sort of, the analogy of the problem founder fit is

1:24:31sort of like the journey builder fit.

1:24:35And, that's something I think a lot about, and I'm paying that, tax a big

1:24:40time right now while trying to build the actual product, the music app, I

1:24:44also roll my entire data layer, which includes the database, which includes

1:24:48the sync system, includes networking, cross platform and for the web.

1:24:53So everything on hard mode.

1:24:55But for me, the most important thing is like enjoying it, enjoying the

1:24:58journey and doing something that, that feels like has a purpose.

1:25:02so I'm, I'm very happy about that.

1:25:04Yeah, exactly.

1:25:05Exactly.

1:25:06And I think that's really what keeps me back coming to the,

1:25:09yes, we made the right decision.

1:25:10Because building that local-first sync, was the right option at the time for

1:25:15the technology options that were in front of us that were on the table.

1:25:19it really fit our values for the kind of app we wanted, but also the

1:25:24kind of data safety and privacy that we want to be able to offer people.

1:25:28I mean, like I said, even in that worst case where I was not able

1:25:31to carry Muse forward, the Muse apps would have continued to be.

1:25:36Functional and useful long into the future because it was built on local-first.

1:25:42And so that's the most important thing for me to carry forward as a solo developer

1:25:46is to keep those values, keep that local-first value of this is your data.

1:25:53It's on your device and you can use it for as long as that device

1:25:56still has a battery inside of it.

1:25:59And, I think the benefits you get from local-first, you do pay the huge

1:26:03tax, but you get such a wonderful reward for the capabilities that

1:26:07local-first software, enables for you.

1:26:10I think it's worth the trade off then.

1:26:12I think it's worth the trade off now and it's.

1:26:16How I want to build software in the future, you know, it's just

1:26:20a wonderful world to live in.

1:26:21I totally agree.

1:26:23And the good news there is like more and more of the hard problems,

1:26:27have already been solved and are continuously being addressed and solved.

1:26:32So the entry ticket is cheaper and cheaper.

1:26:35And we are getting closer and closer to that dream where all of like the caveats

1:26:40are getting chopped off one by one.

1:26:42Year after year, month after month, this is also one of the big things

1:26:45that has drawn me into the local-first space that has just attracted for me.

1:26:52already had the smartest, and brightest minds.

1:26:55And this is what really, gets me so excited that there is just such a wealth

1:27:01of problems that are worth solving that the 2nd order effects of all of those

1:27:06being solved, materially change software and technology for humans in a way.

1:27:13That I think almost no other technology solves.

1:27:17So, and yeah, thank you again for being the inspiration that brought

1:27:22me in and, brings in other people.

1:27:25So, maybe ending on a note, what are, what are you most looking

1:27:30forward to for, for the year ahead?

1:27:32well, I'm an engineer at heart.

1:27:33So a lot of things that get me excited are things that I want to build.

1:27:36And, end to end encryption is exciting.

1:27:39It's super difficult.

1:27:40And it's one of those things that, whenever you build, if you're

1:27:42building encryption yourself, you're doing it wrong, generally speaking.

1:27:46so I think I probably won't be doing end to end encryption anytime soon.

1:27:50But instead, yeah.

1:27:52I still want to solve the problem of privacy.

1:27:55I've had lots, in terms of people being scared or uncomfortable or.

1:28:00Unable to use a third party sync server.

1:28:03I've had, lawyers reach out, psychologists reach out, doctors

1:28:07reach out and say, Hey, I love Muse.

1:28:09It's super helpful for my work.

1:28:11it is physically impossible for me to put patient data in a thing

1:28:15that lands on a third party server.

1:28:17And in some cases it remains impossible.

1:28:22Even if there's end to end encryption, just solving that technical problem does

1:28:25not necessarily solve their business and privacy problem for their patients.

1:28:30So instead, something I'm really excited for is, peer to peer sync.

1:28:35And so instead of going through a Muse server at all, you can have

1:28:39your iPad and your Mac synchronize their full data together entirely

1:28:45over local encrypted connections.

1:28:48And so it's not talking to a server.

1:28:50It's not talking to my server.

1:28:51It's not talking to Amazon server.

1:28:53It's not talking to anybody's server.

1:28:54It is your devices inside of your home on your Wi Fi talking encrypted over your

1:29:01local Wi Fi to stay in sync together.

1:29:03I think that to me really embodies local-first and opens

1:29:08up, even more opportunities.

1:29:11For workflows and customers, that have privacy considerations, I think that

1:29:16solves the problem even more than kind of a traditional SAS end to end encryption

1:29:22would in many ways, because it fully decouples Muse the app from Muse the

1:29:28sync server, which is, I think the gold standard for local for software is to

1:29:32say, Hey, this is your, your device, your stuff, your software, your data.

1:29:36It syncs between your devices like you don't need anybody else.

1:29:39You just need to download the software and away you go.

1:29:41and so I, I love that vision for the future for local-first

1:29:45generally, but especially from you.

1:29:46So I'm really hoping I can dig into that this year.

1:29:50I would love to, to be building on that.

1:29:53I'm super, super excited to hear you say that since it always just

1:29:58like drives me crazy to have devices have like my iPhone and one hand

1:30:06and have maybe an iPad on my table.

1:30:08Maybe there's some hiccup in the internet connection right now.

1:30:13And those two things, they're not even separated by a meter.

1:30:16they're just like completely ignorant of each other existence.

1:30:21And, with an app like Muse solving that and allowing those to Talk

1:30:28to each other who are clearly in proximity to each other.

1:30:32That should be both an inspiration and also a provocation to

1:30:37other apps to do better.

1:30:39And I'm really, really excited about not just for the sake of Muse users

1:30:44who have a better time because of that.

1:30:47And I think that's one of the coolest things in terms of

1:30:50like a new product version.

1:30:52That all the features that you know, in love before are still

1:30:57working the same way, but now an inherent limitation is just gone.

1:31:01And it's like.

1:31:02Obviously, it should have been like that all along and, ideally inspiring

1:31:07and provoking more apps, more builders into falling on the same path.

1:31:13Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

1:31:14I think it's the, I'm a big believer in local-first software and, there's

1:31:19really no reason that, like you said, my laptop sitting here should send its data

1:31:25encrypted or otherwise to the Amazon U. E. US East data center, just to have it

1:31:32sent back to my phone, three feet away.

1:31:34I like it.

1:31:35We, we don't need to be doing that.

1:31:37it's kind of silly.

1:31:38And so keeping that data private and keeping it local, I think you

1:31:42end up getting better performance.

1:31:43You get better privacy.

1:31:44You get better.

1:31:45you get better everything in so many ways.

1:31:49I'm excited for it.

1:31:51Hey, Adam, thank you so much for sharing so much about your journey,

1:31:57for five years now with Muse, I've learned a lot more about the journey,

1:32:03that has led to Muse and has led through the various chapters of Muse.

1:32:08I've taken away a lot here for, for my personal journey, see a lot of

1:32:12similarities, have a lot of empathy for your journey and hopefully some

1:32:17of the audience who are thinking about, starting a similar journey.

1:32:21Maybe there are on a, on a similar journey already.

1:32:24I've learned a lot.

1:32:25I'm, I'm sure folks who are listening have learned a lot and yeah, just

1:32:30thank you for sharing all of that.

1:32:32Yeah.

1:32:32Thank you so much for having me.

1:32:33always happy to chat and always, especially to another, uh, local-first

1:32:37developer, I empathize with you.

1:32:39It's always wonderful to chat with someone who a understand software, but B

1:32:43understands, no, I don't work for Apple.

1:32:45I know I'm, I have an app on the App Store, but no, I just

1:32:49understands the world that I live in.

1:32:52So it's been wonderful.

1:32:53Thanks for having me.

1:32:55Thank you for listening to the localfirst.fm podcast.

1:32:57If you've enjoyed this episode and haven't done so already, please

1:33:00Please subscribe and leave a review.

1:33:02Please also share this episode with your friends and colleagues.

1:33:05Spreading the word about the podcast is a great way to support

1:33:08it and to help me keep it going.

1:33:10A special thanks again to Convex and ElectricSQL for supporting this podcast.

1:33:15See you next time.