1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:04,680 I just see people both talking about sync more on social media. 2 00:00:04,950 --> 00:00:08,369 I see a lot of predictions that this is the key technology for the next 3 00:00:08,369 --> 00:00:13,620 years or more, and I suspect like this is a one day conference, right? 4 00:00:13,620 --> 00:00:15,480 It's a kind of maximum 300 people. 5 00:00:15,900 --> 00:00:19,260 And my hope, and what I kind of think is that we'll look back on it in 6 00:00:19,260 --> 00:00:22,530 10 years time and see this as just one of the seminal conferences that 7 00:00:22,769 --> 00:00:26,970 actually the group of people who were there all then went on to do amazing 8 00:00:26,970 --> 00:00:29,610 things and you kind of look back and it was a privilege to be there. 9 00:00:29,992 --> 00:00:33,682 Welcome to Local-First fm. I'm your host, Johannes Schickling, and this 10 00:00:33,682 --> 00:00:35,662 is a special episode of the podcast. 11 00:00:35,962 --> 00:00:38,542 We're together with Adam Wiggins and James Arthur. 12 00:00:38,692 --> 00:00:42,832 We're excited to announce the first Sync Conference in San Francisco in November. 13 00:00:43,132 --> 00:00:44,722 I hope to see you at the conference. 14 00:00:45,142 --> 00:00:48,202 Also, a big thank you to Jazz for supporting this podcast. 15 00:00:49,001 --> 00:00:50,951 Hey, welcome back James. 16 00:00:51,011 --> 00:00:53,081 Adam, it's so nice to have you back on the podcast. 17 00:00:53,081 --> 00:00:53,651 How are you doing? 18 00:00:54,551 --> 00:00:55,451 Great to be here. 19 00:00:55,631 --> 00:00:56,381 Feeling good. 20 00:00:56,411 --> 00:00:57,911 We got something to be excited about. 21 00:00:59,691 --> 00:01:00,521 Yeah, very well, thanks. 22 00:01:01,766 --> 00:01:02,336 Awesome. 23 00:01:02,336 --> 00:01:06,582 Well, like Adam already mentioned, we have quite the exciting announcement. 24 00:01:06,762 --> 00:01:11,082 The announcement was already made a couple of weeks ago, and in fact 25 00:01:11,142 --> 00:01:15,462 the very first time we talked about it publicly was at Local-First Conf. 26 00:01:16,032 --> 00:01:20,592 Where we announced that there would be a partner conference or sibling 27 00:01:20,592 --> 00:01:25,072 conference, however you wanna call it, called Sync Conf, which doesn't happen 28 00:01:25,072 --> 00:01:29,652 in Berlin, but happens in San Francisco , and it felt appropriate to bring on 29 00:01:29,652 --> 00:01:33,162 the co-hosts of the event, James Adam. 30 00:01:33,162 --> 00:01:36,822 Some of them are not here such as Emma, Johanna, and Jans. 31 00:01:37,152 --> 00:01:41,219 But, with you here, I think it would be interesting to talk 32 00:01:41,219 --> 00:01:42,449 through what the event is about. 33 00:01:42,789 --> 00:01:47,709 Talking through the vision of the event where it's kind of similar 34 00:01:47,709 --> 00:01:52,329 to Local-First Conf, but also where it's different for Local-First Conf. 35 00:01:52,329 --> 00:01:57,189 So I think, James, you brought up this idea initially that you just 36 00:01:57,189 --> 00:01:58,594 saw so much demand and so much. 37 00:01:58,969 --> 00:02:04,426 Pull and interest in sync engines, which is what Electric Sync is all about as 38 00:02:04,426 --> 00:02:08,176 well, that you, I think, raised the question, would it make sense to have 39 00:02:08,176 --> 00:02:12,646 a separate conference in partnership that is all about sync engines? 40 00:02:12,826 --> 00:02:17,776 So maybe you want to give your vision for the event and what's 41 00:02:17,776 --> 00:02:19,366 kinda like made you suggest it. 42 00:02:19,642 --> 00:02:20,692 Yeah, absolutely. 43 00:02:20,692 --> 00:02:26,902 I think a lot of us in this space, we're seeing this concept of sync & merge as 44 00:02:26,902 --> 00:02:32,176 a, in a way sort of core technical aspect of Local-First that a lot of people 45 00:02:32,176 --> 00:02:36,736 who are looking to build local-first were interested in to deliver some 46 00:02:36,766 --> 00:02:42,406 of the maybe sort of harder benefits around instant modern user experience. 47 00:02:43,066 --> 00:02:47,356 Being a good architecture to build modern software on, whereas Local-First 48 00:02:47,356 --> 00:02:52,126 is this sort of broader concept, which includes really interesting motivating 49 00:02:52,126 --> 00:02:56,956 aspects of things like data privacy, which are not necessarily kind of on the 50 00:02:56,956 --> 00:03:00,616 kind of critical path if you're sort of building out a startup kind of in a hurry. 51 00:03:01,019 --> 00:03:05,879 and so sort of focusing on sync is a slightly more pragmatic take 52 00:03:05,879 --> 00:03:08,339 on some of the local-first ideas. 53 00:03:08,969 --> 00:03:13,204 I think why it's so interesting at the moment is if you just sort of lean 54 00:03:13,204 --> 00:03:17,044 back, it's just such an interesting time to be alive as a software developer. 55 00:03:17,314 --> 00:03:21,124 So much of the software stack is just being reinvented 56 00:03:21,124 --> 00:03:23,604 and rethought as we, speak. 57 00:03:24,104 --> 00:03:29,170 And so you have all of this, previous generation software, which is sort 58 00:03:29,170 --> 00:03:33,095 of team-based SaaS, enterprise software, and it's all essentially 59 00:03:33,095 --> 00:03:35,045 being rewritten as agentic software. 60 00:03:35,285 --> 00:03:38,855 And so there's this sort of huge move to where, in a way, all software 61 00:03:38,855 --> 00:03:40,685 is becoming agentic software. 62 00:03:41,062 --> 00:03:44,152 or certainly it's going to be like a large part of that software future. 63 00:03:44,752 --> 00:03:48,622 And just one of the key aspects of agentic software is if you start off 64 00:03:48,622 --> 00:03:50,302 with say, users of your software. 65 00:03:51,142 --> 00:03:54,322 One of the main drivers for like local-first or real time 66 00:03:54,322 --> 00:03:57,322 sync architectures in the first place is multi-user. 67 00:03:57,322 --> 00:04:01,162 So you introduce multiple users and if they're both doing things on the same 68 00:04:01,162 --> 00:04:05,002 data, you have to have some kind of sync architecture to keep them in sync. 69 00:04:05,242 --> 00:04:06,532 But with the agentic software. 70 00:04:06,937 --> 00:04:10,507 The moment you introduce agents as well as users, like all software 71 00:04:10,507 --> 00:04:12,397 inherently becomes multi-user. 72 00:04:12,937 --> 00:04:16,927 And so like agentic software is naturally collaborative and if you 73 00:04:16,927 --> 00:04:20,557 just sort of step back and think, well, how am I gonna build these systems? 74 00:04:20,767 --> 00:04:23,677 If you try to build those on manual data wiring. 75 00:04:24,252 --> 00:04:27,372 It's just crazy and you're gonna have bugs and stale data and a 76 00:04:27,372 --> 00:04:28,902 whole load of extra boiler plate. 77 00:04:29,232 --> 00:04:34,485 And so this sort of core technology of, sync or sync engine architecture, 78 00:04:34,905 --> 00:04:37,965 which in a way has emerged initially as like a component of 79 00:04:37,965 --> 00:04:40,275 real time or local-first systems. 80 00:04:40,695 --> 00:04:44,745 Is now just the key architecture for building agentic systems. 81 00:04:44,925 --> 00:04:48,645 And it's very hard to imagine how you could build agent systems without it. 82 00:04:48,945 --> 00:04:52,395 And as all software moves to agentic, it then really becomes the 83 00:04:52,395 --> 00:04:56,115 key architecture for building this next generation of modern software. 84 00:04:56,805 --> 00:04:57,405 Right. 85 00:04:57,435 --> 00:05:01,485 That, and that is very interesting since when we first started talking about like 86 00:05:01,485 --> 00:05:06,705 doing this extra conference that hasn't even been yet at the center of it since, 87 00:05:06,832 --> 00:05:13,329 like in many months ago, agentic Systems agentic coding has been sort of like on 88 00:05:13,329 --> 00:05:18,009 the horizon, but it hasn't been really there yet as prominently as it is today. 89 00:05:18,279 --> 00:05:24,149 So, like the topic and the core focus of Sync Conf is now even more relevant. 90 00:05:24,179 --> 00:05:28,499 It is not exclusively about agentic systems, but I think they make it just. 91 00:05:28,684 --> 00:05:32,314 Even more clear that we need a better answer for like data 92 00:05:32,314 --> 00:05:36,874 management, particularly in a multi-user or multi-agent way. 93 00:05:36,874 --> 00:05:40,264 Like if you think about users as a user agent, now we have just 94 00:05:40,264 --> 00:05:45,020 different ones, and that is like multiplayer, collaborative software 95 00:05:45,254 --> 00:05:49,045 has always been the foundation or one of the core pillars of local-first. 96 00:05:49,425 --> 00:05:53,390 But like you say, if you put that front and center as the most important one. 97 00:05:54,065 --> 00:05:56,165 That's the more pragmatic way of getting there. 98 00:05:56,405 --> 00:06:01,635 So Adam, you as one of the co-authors of the local-first essay, how do 99 00:06:01,635 --> 00:06:05,745 you feel about kind of tearing apart those different ideals of 100 00:06:05,745 --> 00:06:10,725 local-first software and now focusing on one in particular with Sync Conf? 101 00:06:11,297 --> 00:06:13,127 Yeah, well, certainly, I'll echo what James said. 102 00:06:13,127 --> 00:06:18,557 That's kind of a pragmatism and idealism, not necessarily against each other, but 103 00:06:18,557 --> 00:06:20,487 rather maybe the proportion in the mix. 104 00:06:20,487 --> 00:06:23,547 Local-first Conf, I think is very, and local-first, in general is very 105 00:06:23,727 --> 00:06:28,397 driven by those ideals of user agency, data ownership and that sort of thing. 106 00:06:28,397 --> 00:06:32,207 And what we see is just a better way for computers to serve 107 00:06:32,207 --> 00:06:33,957 human needs in the long run. 108 00:06:34,350 --> 00:06:36,840 but then something really interesting started to happen. 109 00:06:37,335 --> 00:06:40,785 At the conferences both years, but especially this last year, 110 00:06:41,102 --> 00:06:44,127 when we really saw a lot of people coming to the community. 111 00:06:44,792 --> 00:06:48,182 A lot more interested in those pragmatic benefits or maybe more compelled by them. 112 00:06:48,512 --> 00:06:52,682 And to me that's, you know, there is a version where, I don't know, I could 113 00:06:52,682 --> 00:06:56,495 feel, or people who, came from that more ideological background, which obviously 114 00:06:56,495 --> 00:07:00,095 I do, could feel like, wait a minute, you know, we're here with these grand ideals, 115 00:07:00,095 --> 00:07:03,965 and you just show up and say, Hey, we want fast UIs and cheaper hosting bills, and 116 00:07:03,965 --> 00:07:07,205 hey, this works really well with agentic AI and we say, wait a minute, you're 117 00:07:07,205 --> 00:07:09,125 missing out on those, those grand ideals. 118 00:07:09,125 --> 00:07:14,185 But I actually see it as a big tent thing that it's actually pretty interesting 119 00:07:14,185 --> 00:07:19,415 and actually pretty awesome that, people came to this technology or this kind of 120 00:07:19,655 --> 00:07:26,435 architecture for many different reasons, but we get a lot of different benefits and 121 00:07:26,545 --> 00:07:28,655 people have different reasons to prefer. 122 00:07:28,835 --> 00:07:32,705 I'm here for the pragmatic benefit of just the simplified stack and the developer 123 00:07:32,705 --> 00:07:36,405 experience, and other people are more about the user agency and data ownership. 124 00:07:37,015 --> 00:07:39,925 But we all can kind of, we all come together and I think that. 125 00:07:39,925 --> 00:07:44,045 The coal, that coalition is stronger and it's an opportunity to expand 126 00:07:44,425 --> 00:07:48,315 the reach and to, yeah, just to make this way of building software 127 00:07:48,315 --> 00:07:52,019 that we've all fallen in love with, something that can spread even further. 128 00:07:52,535 --> 00:07:53,345 That makes sense. 129 00:07:53,345 --> 00:07:58,505 So in a way, Local-First has, for me, always been about sort of like 130 00:07:58,805 --> 00:08:06,159 aspiring to, a greater, way of building things, to ultimately serve a human, 131 00:08:06,159 --> 00:08:08,049 give them more agency, et cetera. 132 00:08:08,049 --> 00:08:12,339 And it has been a huge source of inspiration for myself, and I think this 133 00:08:12,339 --> 00:08:16,359 is why we did the Local-first Conference as well, to broaden that even further, 134 00:08:16,509 --> 00:08:19,089 to give voices to many different people. 135 00:08:19,244 --> 00:08:21,284 Working on interesting things, et cetera. 136 00:08:21,284 --> 00:08:25,850 And, for me, like the core of it has always been, inspiring makers, 137 00:08:25,970 --> 00:08:32,200 building software that we can do better and sync engines and data syncing 138 00:08:32,200 --> 00:08:34,150 in general, I think is part of that. 139 00:08:34,510 --> 00:08:35,740 But I think it's the. 140 00:08:36,158 --> 00:08:37,989 biggest bang for the buck, basically. 141 00:08:38,355 --> 00:08:42,705 like this is where you can use off the shelf technologies today and you get 142 00:08:42,705 --> 00:08:45,005 the, furthest with that technology. 143 00:08:45,305 --> 00:08:49,295 Like there's, to really get there fully with local-first, 144 00:08:49,562 --> 00:08:51,902 I think very few apps at all. 145 00:08:51,932 --> 00:08:55,442 Like do that full justice to all seven ideals. 146 00:08:55,682 --> 00:08:59,451 Like if you basically, look at it through the eyes of, Martin 147 00:08:59,451 --> 00:09:03,201 Kleppmann where he, like, he defines of like, is it local-first software? 148 00:09:03,201 --> 00:09:03,531 Yes. 149 00:09:03,531 --> 00:09:04,011 No. 150 00:09:04,348 --> 00:09:08,008 I think very few pieces of software like fully are local-first, 151 00:09:08,008 --> 00:09:09,208 but I think that's fine. 152 00:09:09,238 --> 00:09:14,414 And Sync Conf is like very much like an, encouragement of that 153 00:09:14,414 --> 00:09:15,854 fact and of that trade off. 154 00:09:15,854 --> 00:09:19,731 Like I continue to be inspired by the local-first ideals. 155 00:09:20,251 --> 00:09:25,021 I think it makes a lot of sense for folks to like embrace sync engines like 156 00:09:25,021 --> 00:09:30,871 Electric, like Jazz, like Xero, et cetera, to build better apps faster and not having 157 00:09:30,871 --> 00:09:33,871 the ideals stand in the way of shipping. 158 00:09:34,522 --> 00:09:36,472 I think that said, right, and I think. 159 00:09:37,122 --> 00:09:43,062 As there's also, there's also a kind of a game afoot at the moment where working 160 00:09:43,062 --> 00:09:47,982 out the best stack for software because, so one of the big trends that's having the 161 00:09:47,982 --> 00:09:52,152 software at the moment is agentic, and so the type of software that we're building 162 00:09:52,152 --> 00:09:56,802 is changing, but at the same time, how we're building the software is changing 163 00:09:56,802 --> 00:10:02,497 because you have these AI code editors and LLMs and so the sort of first generation 164 00:10:02,497 --> 00:10:06,684 of those has chosen stacks, like, for example, Supabase which is awesome. 165 00:10:06,684 --> 00:10:10,644 And you can kind of go a long way there with like a backend as a service framework 166 00:10:10,644 --> 00:10:13,634 and a database built in and sensible APIs. 167 00:10:14,744 --> 00:10:20,104 But if you have LLMs generating code with data fetching in it, then 168 00:10:20,224 --> 00:10:23,594 that application that is writing can quickly turn into spaghetti. 169 00:10:23,894 --> 00:10:27,847 and I know from speaking to a number of them that, a lot of these leading AI 170 00:10:27,847 --> 00:10:31,627 code editor platforms and LLM platforms are just looking ahead to go, well, 171 00:10:31,627 --> 00:10:34,772 what actually is the best stack for the software that we are generating? 172 00:10:35,407 --> 00:10:35,887 And I think. 173 00:10:36,107 --> 00:10:36,497 As well. 174 00:10:36,497 --> 00:10:41,267 That's where you come back to distinctions between, say, imperative data fetching 175 00:10:41,267 --> 00:10:42,797 and declarative data fetching. 176 00:10:43,067 --> 00:10:47,477 And a sync engine is just like the core technology to unlock your ability 177 00:10:47,477 --> 00:10:51,347 to move to a declarative model that allows you to move these elements of 178 00:10:51,347 --> 00:10:56,057 data transfer out of the LLM generated code domain, which means that A, the 179 00:10:56,057 --> 00:11:00,317 applications that, the LMS generate are much better, but they're also much more 180 00:11:00,317 --> 00:11:03,797 maintainable and more likely to be able to move into production and evolve. 181 00:11:03,987 --> 00:11:05,457 That makes perfect sense. 182 00:11:05,457 --> 00:11:10,757 And so this brings me to my next question, who would be the target 183 00:11:10,757 --> 00:11:13,037 audience for the conference? 184 00:11:13,107 --> 00:11:17,337 So if you're now listening as a typical localfirst.fm listeners, 185 00:11:17,337 --> 00:11:22,797 maybe you're here for the thinking, big Pie in the Sky, inspiration. 186 00:11:23,067 --> 00:11:27,387 And you're dreaming of a world where like all software is purely 187 00:11:27,387 --> 00:11:29,757 local-first, but maybe you're also here. 188 00:11:29,967 --> 00:11:35,667 As a React developer who is currently using some like TanStack query and 189 00:11:35,667 --> 00:11:40,047 just like gets by building shipping stuff quickly and you're just looking 190 00:11:40,047 --> 00:11:44,557 for like a bigger lever to ship stuff even more quickly and giving 191 00:11:44,557 --> 00:11:46,587 people a better user experience. 192 00:11:46,857 --> 00:11:52,324 So my take would be the latter one is exactly the right target audience. 193 00:11:52,444 --> 00:11:57,059 Someone who ships code like not how it looks like in three years from now. 194 00:11:57,694 --> 00:12:02,944 But today, and they need to pick something that doesn't make their life harder but 195 00:12:02,974 --> 00:12:05,389 easier, with ideally no strings attached. 196 00:12:05,959 --> 00:12:08,689 Yeah, I think that's what I've been telling folks in the Ink & Switch 197 00:12:08,689 --> 00:12:12,289 community and the local-first community and the sort of folks 198 00:12:12,289 --> 00:12:13,529 that come to Local-First Conf. 199 00:12:13,549 --> 00:12:16,759 In a way, you probably know a lot of this already. 200 00:12:17,086 --> 00:12:20,566 so I see it as the people who are maybe more local-first curious. 201 00:12:21,046 --> 00:12:24,466 They've been interested in this, they've seen the energy in the space. 202 00:12:24,616 --> 00:12:26,716 They hear about these practises, you know, they use Linear and 203 00:12:26,716 --> 00:12:28,036 they're, how is it so fast? 204 00:12:28,036 --> 00:12:30,892 And then they see it, you know, Linear CTO giving the talk at 205 00:12:31,042 --> 00:12:33,712 Local-First Conf basically saying it's because we use a sync engine. 206 00:12:33,712 --> 00:12:36,502 And they go, okay, well I'm interested in that, but how do I get started? 207 00:12:36,502 --> 00:12:37,522 Where do I get started? 208 00:12:37,943 --> 00:12:41,033 so what I've basically been looking for is the opportunity to invite 209 00:12:41,033 --> 00:12:42,803 people who are on that edge there. 210 00:12:42,953 --> 00:12:46,193 They maybe are a more, what would you call a mainstream developer or 211 00:12:46,193 --> 00:12:49,163 just someone who's, you know, focused on building software with proven 212 00:12:49,163 --> 00:12:53,958 technology, which is absolutely a very sensical, way to work your career. 213 00:12:54,218 --> 00:12:57,228 But then, you know, you wanna be aware of things that can yes, help 214 00:12:57,228 --> 00:12:59,898 you build better software, help you build that software faster. 215 00:13:00,168 --> 00:13:04,638 And as you pointed out, there are parts of the local-first stack, if 216 00:13:04,638 --> 00:13:08,108 you want to call it that, that are kind of ready for production today. 217 00:13:08,108 --> 00:13:10,028 There's other parts that are still more researchy, more 218 00:13:10,028 --> 00:13:11,528 speculative and aspirational. 219 00:13:11,828 --> 00:13:14,768 And so I think that's part of what this conference is doing is focusing on 220 00:13:14,768 --> 00:13:16,058 those parts that are like, Hey, you can. 221 00:13:16,313 --> 00:13:17,783 You can really use this today. 222 00:13:18,090 --> 00:13:20,790 and the evidence is a lot of the speakers we have from places 223 00:13:20,790 --> 00:13:22,637 like Figma and Notion and OpenAI. 224 00:13:22,700 --> 00:13:27,540 In fact Notion just launched their offline support based on a lot of this pioneering 225 00:13:27,540 --> 00:13:29,190 work by the local-first community. 226 00:13:29,460 --> 00:13:32,880 And we're saying, Hey, this big company has done it for their at-scale product. 227 00:13:33,343 --> 00:13:36,193 one of their engineers who've worked on it is gonna come and tell you about it. 228 00:13:36,373 --> 00:13:38,293 And this is something you can practically use. 229 00:13:38,293 --> 00:13:41,023 It's less about the aspiration and more about. 230 00:13:41,093 --> 00:13:44,483 Here's something you can go back to your job or your side projects 231 00:13:44,573 --> 00:13:46,073 and start using right now today. 232 00:13:46,278 --> 00:13:46,668 Right. 233 00:13:46,908 --> 00:13:50,298 And I think another way to look at this as well is like the, 234 00:13:50,347 --> 00:13:52,477 bar is constantly rising, right? 235 00:13:52,747 --> 00:13:58,734 Like in the, baseline expectation of a consumer using an app like that bar is 236 00:13:58,734 --> 00:14:03,994 constantly going up, like similar to how back in the days it would've been fine 237 00:14:03,994 --> 00:14:06,904 to have like a mostly static website. 238 00:14:06,904 --> 00:14:11,189 When you click, you see sort of like the forwarding in 3, 2, 1, and at 239 00:14:11,189 --> 00:14:12,839 some point just needed to be dynamic. 240 00:14:12,839 --> 00:14:14,939 It needed to be fast, and there was mobile. 241 00:14:15,209 --> 00:14:17,699 Every app needed to have a mobile app as well. 242 00:14:18,089 --> 00:14:22,559 And I think now the baseline expectations are changing that 243 00:14:22,739 --> 00:14:25,079 Linear has sort of like normalized. 244 00:14:25,139 --> 00:14:26,879 High quality expectations. 245 00:14:26,879 --> 00:14:28,949 So does Figma, so does Notion, et cetera. 246 00:14:28,949 --> 00:14:34,349 So the next generation of apps now have to like the entry barrier is now 247 00:14:34,349 --> 00:14:36,839 already that high quality expectation. 248 00:14:37,079 --> 00:14:41,279 And I think the only way how we can get there, at least that I'm aware of, 249 00:14:41,639 --> 00:14:44,489 is to use sync engine technologies. 250 00:14:44,864 --> 00:14:48,944 And I think that's another way for people to look at why they should care 251 00:14:48,944 --> 00:14:54,164 about this conference is like, if they want to build applications that have a 252 00:14:54,194 --> 00:14:59,854 competitive, rational chance of being adopted, then I think this can be a 253 00:14:59,854 --> 00:15:05,604 critical, component to just like make faster apps that work collaboratively 254 00:15:05,604 --> 00:15:10,314 since if you don't use that and you try to build collaborative apps, good luck. 255 00:15:10,650 --> 00:15:17,385 I think, one thing is why we wanted to, host in San Francisco is that a 256 00:15:17,385 --> 00:15:20,966 lot of this, new stack for agentic systems is still being figured out and 257 00:15:20,966 --> 00:15:23,736 it's kind of being figured out on the ground by the people who are building 258 00:15:24,036 --> 00:15:27,536 that software 'cause you have to almost just dive in to kind of figure 259 00:15:27,536 --> 00:15:29,126 out what the actual problems are. 260 00:15:29,126 --> 00:15:31,646 What do you need to do to make these things work? 261 00:15:32,159 --> 00:15:36,869 so for Sync Conf, moving from Berlin to San Francisco is partly because that's 262 00:15:36,869 --> 00:15:40,379 where the people building this next generation of agentic software are. 263 00:15:40,709 --> 00:15:44,289 And then for the people that we wanted to come to the conference. 264 00:15:45,069 --> 00:15:50,534 Was almost deliberately to combine product builders and some of the kind 265 00:15:50,534 --> 00:15:53,674 of leading product builders or people defining those stacks like Tanner 266 00:15:53,674 --> 00:15:56,204 Linsley from Tan Stack, for example. 267 00:15:56,621 --> 00:15:59,911 with developers actually building kind of new software 268 00:15:59,911 --> 00:16:01,381 and agentic system on the ground. 269 00:16:01,621 --> 00:16:05,431 And I think if we can sort of have that cross pollination from this sort of 270 00:16:05,431 --> 00:16:09,541 world of kind of sync engine local-first technologists and developer tooling. 271 00:16:09,876 --> 00:16:14,046 With practical experience of building agentic systems, then it may be 272 00:16:14,046 --> 00:16:16,536 that actually it's not necessarily come to the conference to sort 273 00:16:16,536 --> 00:16:18,036 of find out how it's all done. 274 00:16:18,036 --> 00:16:20,696 It's like, come to the conference and let's figure it out together 275 00:16:21,039 --> 00:16:21,699 That's a great point. 276 00:16:21,699 --> 00:16:25,329 One of the things I've loved so much about Local-first Conf last two years 277 00:16:25,539 --> 00:16:29,409 is it really feels like being part of a community that is in the process of 278 00:16:29,409 --> 00:16:34,089 figuring itself out both what it stands for, but also what the technology is gonna 279 00:16:34,089 --> 00:16:38,469 be and what the hard parts of the problem are, and how to, you know, monetize 280 00:16:38,469 --> 00:16:40,539 it or make a, make a living out of it. 281 00:16:40,719 --> 00:16:44,298 How it relates to the current software that exists today, whether 282 00:16:44,298 --> 00:16:48,138 it's sits side by side or it's more revolutionary or more incremental. 283 00:16:48,258 --> 00:16:51,888 All of that is, feels like it's happening very live, and we're hopefully 284 00:16:51,888 --> 00:16:53,598 creating a venue where that can happen. 285 00:16:53,633 --> 00:16:57,593 the three of us here, as well as our other co-organizers, have our own opinions 286 00:16:57,593 --> 00:16:59,123 about that and maybe their own directions. 287 00:16:59,123 --> 00:17:03,713 We'd like to see things going, but it's community and it's evolving and in an 288 00:17:03,713 --> 00:17:06,983 organic way that's wandering in all kinds of interesting directions and 289 00:17:07,033 --> 00:17:09,713 exploring interesting nooks and crannies. 290 00:17:09,713 --> 00:17:13,698 And I see this as a another chance, again a different place with a different, 291 00:17:13,698 --> 00:17:17,358 slightly different demographic of speakers, but probably also attendees. 292 00:17:17,418 --> 00:17:20,868 And it's another, which is sort of exploring another canyon in the idea 293 00:17:20,868 --> 00:17:25,848 maze, another path down that I think will give kind of fresh perspective 294 00:17:25,848 --> 00:17:28,788 and it's hardly exactly, it's hardly about here's how you do it. 295 00:17:28,968 --> 00:17:31,073 It's more like, let's figure out how to do it. 296 00:17:31,588 --> 00:17:32,038 Right. 297 00:17:32,298 --> 00:17:36,545 and I think people are in different, parts of the spectrum of like how 298 00:17:36,545 --> 00:17:37,955 much they have figured this out. 299 00:17:38,381 --> 00:17:40,751 I think we have like some real pioneers here. 300 00:17:40,751 --> 00:17:44,715 We have someone from Figma coming when Figma launched, I think 301 00:17:44,715 --> 00:17:45,890 it launched out of the gate. 302 00:17:46,235 --> 00:17:51,264 Being collaborative, like this is similar to how it blew me away when 303 00:17:51,264 --> 00:17:54,474 Google Docs launched and I saw like that blinking cursor and I could 304 00:17:54,474 --> 00:17:58,604 share it with a friend and like we, we could collaboratively like that magic. 305 00:17:58,971 --> 00:18:03,891 I just recall it so strongly and that was maybe even stronger for Figma. 306 00:18:03,951 --> 00:18:08,031 Like it blew me away how nice the software was, but then I could like, share it 307 00:18:08,031 --> 00:18:09,771 with someone and saw their cursor. 308 00:18:10,011 --> 00:18:13,161 Figma has had that for now, like many, many years. 309 00:18:13,687 --> 00:18:15,397 I, maybe even a decade. 310 00:18:15,757 --> 00:18:20,317 And so Figma has certly figured out a lot of pieces there, and I think 311 00:18:20,317 --> 00:18:24,187 they also, they have a much richer vocabulary around that already. 312 00:18:24,187 --> 00:18:28,867 And they've like blogged a lot about this, with their life graph system. 313 00:18:28,867 --> 00:18:33,467 And so, I think they have some really, really interesting stories to share there. 314 00:18:33,805 --> 00:18:37,615 so I'm really looking forward to, that talk in particular. 315 00:18:37,975 --> 00:18:41,915 But we also hear from like many other speakers, how they're already 316 00:18:41,915 --> 00:18:45,962 using some of those technologies in their applications and, their stacks. 317 00:18:46,222 --> 00:18:49,062 So I'm, I'm curious whether there's any kind of particular 318 00:18:49,062 --> 00:18:52,632 talks that you're already looking forward to and what you're, what 319 00:18:52,632 --> 00:18:54,792 you're particularly looking for. 320 00:18:55,155 --> 00:18:57,375 Yeah, well, I think we mentioned Figma and Notion already. 321 00:18:57,375 --> 00:19:03,322 They're both such notable examples of high craft software, but also at scale, 322 00:19:03,642 --> 00:19:06,102 at successful scale, in our industry. 323 00:19:06,102 --> 00:19:08,222 And so hearing from software engineers who have been working 324 00:19:08,222 --> 00:19:12,512 for a long time very directly on their CRDT based or sync engine 325 00:19:12,512 --> 00:19:15,222 based systems is gonna be fantastic. 326 00:19:15,502 --> 00:19:18,012 I'm also looking forward to hearing from Sunil Pai. 327 00:19:18,252 --> 00:19:22,122 Who's at CloudFlare now, but he's previously was creator of Party Kit and I 328 00:19:22,122 --> 00:19:26,592 think of him as both a local-first og, but also someone who's very forward thinking. 329 00:19:26,622 --> 00:19:30,828 And I think he is gonna, speak on the building agentic apps topic. 330 00:19:30,828 --> 00:19:34,758 And, you know, he, he's better qualified than almost anyone I know to tell, to 331 00:19:34,758 --> 00:19:38,508 talk about that thing of, that we kind of touched on earlier, which is okay. 332 00:19:38,818 --> 00:19:42,238 Here's how, here's how users are expecting software to work now. 333 00:19:42,328 --> 00:19:46,558 And it turns out that the sync engine foundation that we have created already 334 00:19:46,678 --> 00:19:49,528 is actually a really, in addition to all these other benefits, it has, like the 335 00:19:49,528 --> 00:19:53,339 multiplayer, collaboration by default or the better developer experience 336 00:19:53,399 --> 00:19:56,999 also actually is the best foundation for doing this kind of software. 337 00:19:57,222 --> 00:20:00,419 I think for me, the one I'm most looking forward to is Frank 338 00:20:00,419 --> 00:20:02,209 McSherry from Materialized. 339 00:20:02,509 --> 00:20:06,829 So personally right back in the beginning, before starting Electric, 340 00:20:06,829 --> 00:20:10,189 when I was first digging into this space, discovering some of his work 341 00:20:10,189 --> 00:20:15,212 on differential data flow, timely data flow, building that into Materialize 342 00:20:15,212 --> 00:20:19,082 as like a streaming database product was one of the big inspirations behind 343 00:20:19,082 --> 00:20:21,122 starting what we are doing with Electric. 344 00:20:21,472 --> 00:20:25,412 And so he has personally invented and then pioneered and evolved a 345 00:20:25,412 --> 00:20:30,069 lot of the core underlying tech, but behind, sync technology. 346 00:20:30,609 --> 00:20:34,179 But also I think with the journey with Materialize, which is now quite a 347 00:20:34,179 --> 00:20:37,569 mature company serving larger customers. 348 00:20:37,944 --> 00:20:44,150 They have evolved from being a streaming analytics database, to a platform 349 00:20:44,150 --> 00:20:48,130 where you can also build applications on top of that streaming data. 350 00:20:48,460 --> 00:20:51,880 And so I think his insights both into the development of the technology. 351 00:20:52,555 --> 00:20:56,365 But also the use cases of the demand that's sort of pulling them towards 352 00:20:56,365 --> 00:21:00,115 that application development use case is really telling because rather than 353 00:21:00,115 --> 00:21:04,135 just being like focusing, doubling down on analytics use case, they're 354 00:21:04,135 --> 00:21:07,795 seeing that their customers want them to build applications on this pattern. 355 00:21:08,065 --> 00:21:10,190 And so I think understanding about that would be really interesting. 356 00:21:10,824 --> 00:21:11,724 Yeah, for sure. 357 00:21:11,754 --> 00:21:15,444 I remember looking into Materialize many years ago, and I've been like, 358 00:21:15,474 --> 00:21:21,278 blown away by like the, similar premise basically, which is to think about data 359 00:21:21,278 --> 00:21:26,348 more declaratively and less imperatively so that you can basically, from 360 00:21:26,348 --> 00:21:31,088 your data sources have like a always up-to-date view, which is kind of like 361 00:21:31,088 --> 00:21:34,198 what sync engines are about as well. 362 00:21:34,378 --> 00:21:38,578 Like, yes, Materialize started out earlier, more in the analytical space, 363 00:21:38,848 --> 00:21:43,888 but now like, it's kind of like a blurry line where, where like your analytical 364 00:21:43,888 --> 00:21:48,478 workload and your like experiments stop and where your application starts, 365 00:21:48,478 --> 00:21:53,668 particularly now, where you kind of have not just the high quality expectation 366 00:21:53,668 --> 00:21:58,768 for software in terms of craft and like being collaborative, but also for like 367 00:21:58,798 --> 00:22:01,643 how smart your software should be, right. 368 00:22:01,643 --> 00:22:06,569 I think the days are over where the expectation can stop by software 369 00:22:06,569 --> 00:22:10,499 being like fully deterministic and like just a hard coded functions. 370 00:22:10,709 --> 00:22:15,269 But now you kinda, like you, you've used chat GPT, so like why not, why 371 00:22:15,269 --> 00:22:18,459 shouldn't your other tool like be able. 372 00:22:18,489 --> 00:22:23,553 to operate in that way and fulfill your, hopes and visions in this way. 373 00:22:23,893 --> 00:22:27,473 And so a lot of what makes it happen is data. 374 00:22:27,623 --> 00:22:32,256 And I think this is like also the main theme of the conference is like, 375 00:22:32,286 --> 00:22:36,936 okay, to build awesome apps, we gotta figure out the data thing and we, we 376 00:22:36,936 --> 00:22:38,766 shouldn't do it like in the 1990s. 377 00:22:39,141 --> 00:22:42,261 But we should do it like how it's done in the future. 378 00:22:42,291 --> 00:22:43,611 And that starts right now. 379 00:22:43,971 --> 00:22:49,711 And I think this is a super exciting like case study and perspective 380 00:22:49,941 --> 00:22:54,381 through the lens of Materialize that I think we can apply on like pretty 381 00:22:54,381 --> 00:22:56,571 much all technological systems. 382 00:22:56,664 --> 00:22:58,304 can take something away from this. 383 00:22:58,864 --> 00:23:01,214 So very excited about this one. 384 00:23:01,437 --> 00:23:04,718 another one I'm personally also really excited about is having 385 00:23:04,718 --> 00:23:07,447 Carl Sverre, on the conference. 386 00:23:07,731 --> 00:23:13,684 he has in the past built a system called SQL Sync, which is a really, really 387 00:23:13,684 --> 00:23:19,784 interesting sync engine based on SQLite, which is like as there are multiple 388 00:23:19,804 --> 00:23:24,749 technologies in the local-first or sync engine space hovering around SQLite, me 389 00:23:24,749 --> 00:23:29,662 building also one of them I think he has a particularly interesting approach by 390 00:23:29,889 --> 00:23:32,289 tackling this in a very low level way. 391 00:23:32,396 --> 00:23:36,926 he's worked in the past on different database engines or he's like 392 00:23:37,171 --> 00:23:41,157 really like a distributed systems engineer through and through. 393 00:23:41,517 --> 00:23:46,881 And he's been working on some new systems as well called Graft, which is 394 00:23:46,881 --> 00:23:50,601 basically a sync engine for memory blocks. 395 00:23:50,651 --> 00:23:54,431 That can, for example, empower a system like SQL Sync. 396 00:23:54,761 --> 00:23:57,731 So I think he's cooking some really, really interesting 397 00:23:57,731 --> 00:24:01,901 building blocks here that other systems could be built on top of. 398 00:24:01,961 --> 00:24:06,371 And you can build arbitrary collaborative applications on top of this. 399 00:24:06,371 --> 00:24:10,291 So if you build the next Figma, maybe you build it on top of that. 400 00:24:10,591 --> 00:24:15,191 So also really curious to, hear more from, from Carl on this. 401 00:24:15,285 --> 00:24:18,805 I think with that you see some cross-fertilization between some of the 402 00:24:18,925 --> 00:24:23,515 concepts where, so one of things that's really interesting about Graft is a lot of 403 00:24:23,515 --> 00:24:27,835 sync engines are syncing logical changes where it's more like physical replication. 404 00:24:28,105 --> 00:24:31,045 But of course, that's kind of the same technology underpinning serverless 405 00:24:31,585 --> 00:24:36,115 databases, things like Neon, for example, which has obviously recently 406 00:24:36,115 --> 00:24:38,605 been bought by Databricks, kind of because they were brought into this 407 00:24:38,605 --> 00:24:43,015 lake-base kind of concept, which is almost hybrid sort of analytics. 408 00:24:43,015 --> 00:24:46,615 So LTP workloads for app building, which is exactly what we just 409 00:24:46,615 --> 00:24:48,565 discussed around Materialize. 410 00:24:48,895 --> 00:24:52,615 So actually some of these sort of like sync concepts are actually 411 00:24:52,615 --> 00:24:57,325 sort of fusing with some of the developments in cloud and analytics. 412 00:24:57,896 --> 00:25:00,711 But they also represent potentially very different approaches. 413 00:25:00,711 --> 00:25:04,461 My chat with Carl was basically he, he's kinda like, ah, the 414 00:25:04,461 --> 00:25:06,111 CRDT application level thing. 415 00:25:06,111 --> 00:25:06,561 No, no, no. 416 00:25:06,561 --> 00:25:08,631 Do it at the, you know, the lower physical level. 417 00:25:08,871 --> 00:25:12,111 And obviously there can be different technologies for different use cases. 418 00:25:12,351 --> 00:25:15,831 So it's not necessarily that they're in competition, but it to that point of 419 00:25:15,831 --> 00:25:18,111 like, what is the right way to accomplish? 420 00:25:18,466 --> 00:25:20,416 What we wanna accomplish in our applications. 421 00:25:20,416 --> 00:25:21,796 We're all figuring it out together. 422 00:25:21,796 --> 00:25:24,816 And here are some different people who are on the cutting edge of 423 00:25:24,816 --> 00:25:28,216 trying each possible way of doing it. 424 00:25:28,216 --> 00:25:31,396 And let's kind of compare and contrast and, learn from each other and get 425 00:25:31,396 --> 00:25:33,686 inspired and even compete a little bit. 426 00:25:33,926 --> 00:25:35,596 I think that's part of what makes it exciting. 427 00:25:36,441 --> 00:25:37,131 Yeah, exactly. 428 00:25:37,131 --> 00:25:41,451 And I think about data, it's always the ultimate, like it depends. 429 00:25:41,481 --> 00:25:45,291 So you're building your system, you have like your trade-offs that you should 430 00:25:45,291 --> 00:25:50,661 leverage and then around those trade-offs, pick the best data architecture, the best 431 00:25:50,811 --> 00:25:54,061 implementation, the best off-the-shelf sync engine or roll your own. 432 00:25:54,711 --> 00:25:58,431 And I think someone like Carl has like over the years. 433 00:25:58,706 --> 00:26:04,316 Deeply studied those trade-offs and then has picked one that particularly spoke 434 00:26:04,316 --> 00:26:09,978 to him and started going all in on this to, a level of like excellence and 435 00:26:09,978 --> 00:26:14,185 like focus on performance, et cetera, that I think is like hard to match. 436 00:26:14,185 --> 00:26:18,918 So anyone who's coming to the conference and you're trying to figure out like, how 437 00:26:18,918 --> 00:26:20,958 do we build maybe our own sync engine? 438 00:26:20,958 --> 00:26:22,758 Should we build our own sync engine? 439 00:26:22,928 --> 00:26:25,678 Carl is definitely a person, to, speak to. 440 00:26:25,708 --> 00:26:28,458 And I think that's also one of the main questions to figure out, like, 441 00:26:28,458 --> 00:26:32,088 Hey, should we, for our product, should we build our own sync engine? 442 00:26:32,118 --> 00:26:36,285 The answer might be yes, or should we use an off-the-shelf technology talking 443 00:26:36,285 --> 00:26:41,165 to other practitioners is it a stupid idea to build your own sync engine or 444 00:26:41,165 --> 00:26:44,125 in which cases is it actually necessary. 445 00:26:44,305 --> 00:26:48,141 So I think that's one of the, key questions that technical decision 446 00:26:48,161 --> 00:26:52,981 makers can find the answer for than in no other place than at this conference. 447 00:26:52,981 --> 00:26:53,431 I think. 448 00:26:53,791 --> 00:26:58,740 So I'm, pretty excited about this and another person I'm very thrilled 449 00:26:58,740 --> 00:27:03,280 to have is my, friend Lee Byron, who is one of the co-creators of GraphQL. 450 00:27:03,280 --> 00:27:08,165 This is how I got to know him and spent a lot of time with him in my past life. 451 00:27:08,375 --> 00:27:13,052 But these days he's working at OpenAI and he's actually shipped 452 00:27:13,402 --> 00:27:18,532 some notable parts of ChatGPT particularly the Canvas feature. 453 00:27:18,882 --> 00:27:24,795 And so the canvas feature is, like already exhibiting one of the things that you've 454 00:27:24,855 --> 00:27:30,375 mentioned, James, which is basically that the AI is collaborating with us humans. 455 00:27:30,765 --> 00:27:35,115 And so when you're using chat GPT, you're collaborating on 456 00:27:35,115 --> 00:27:37,335 an artifact on this canvas. 457 00:27:37,725 --> 00:27:43,878 And so this is, to my understanding, actually driven by a either a CRDT 458 00:27:43,898 --> 00:27:46,508 or OT based system, like the details. 459 00:27:46,508 --> 00:27:52,622 We'll get to learn at the conference talk, but this is where OpenAI had with least 460 00:27:52,622 --> 00:27:57,487 help shipped their own implementation of this, that powers this experience that 461 00:27:57,487 --> 00:27:59,947 many of us use on a day-to-day basis. 462 00:28:00,247 --> 00:28:05,817 And I'm really excited to hear his perspective since he is obviously a 463 00:28:05,836 --> 00:28:10,483 connoisseur when it comes to good data management and tasteful data management. 464 00:28:10,483 --> 00:28:14,003 So I'm very curious what, what he's crafted there. 465 00:28:14,442 --> 00:28:19,842 I think OpenAI as a product is also really interesting in showing that 466 00:28:20,022 --> 00:28:24,992 just this evolution of like how LLM models are being productized, where 467 00:28:25,302 --> 00:28:29,232 earlier generations you had a kind of fundamental model and an API, but 468 00:28:29,232 --> 00:28:33,882 the actual software architecture now in front of them with routing layers 469 00:28:33,942 --> 00:28:37,422 and complex parts of that software is just increasing and increasing. 470 00:28:38,292 --> 00:28:41,012 And that is a domain, which is like those are some of the 471 00:28:41,012 --> 00:28:42,612 most complex agentic systems. 472 00:28:42,882 --> 00:28:46,542 And so understanding the architecture of how to build those is then really, 473 00:28:46,838 --> 00:28:50,865 interesting to kind of inform how to build other systems on similar architecture. 474 00:28:51,345 --> 00:28:55,755 And I think as we're seeing, a lot of it is about being able to, have different 475 00:28:55,755 --> 00:29:00,495 parts of the system agents, services, users kept in sync with the same data. 476 00:29:00,873 --> 00:29:05,153 So another speaker I'm really looking forward to is you, Adam. 477 00:29:05,513 --> 00:29:08,113 Adam, you are giving a talk as well. 478 00:29:08,343 --> 00:29:10,743 No one told me about this. 479 00:29:11,103 --> 00:29:13,953 So what can we look forward to in your talk? 480 00:29:14,291 --> 00:29:17,421 Yeah, I think the way I'm thinking of it is I do think it's still 481 00:29:17,441 --> 00:29:21,541 important to represent kind of those local-first ideals and again, people 482 00:29:21,541 --> 00:29:23,591 that come to this may be from a more. 483 00:29:24,101 --> 00:29:26,921 How do I build something today, pragmatic perspective. 484 00:29:26,921 --> 00:29:30,731 Maybe it's a chance for them to also see those more aspirational things. 485 00:29:30,731 --> 00:29:35,021 So I think I'll probably focus on some of those local-first fundamentals 486 00:29:35,021 --> 00:29:39,881 for kind of, for this audience and perhaps somewhat updated to 2025. 487 00:29:39,881 --> 00:29:41,261 So that's probably the way I'll go. 488 00:29:41,261 --> 00:29:44,081 I mean, given that amazing lineup you just mentioned, and by the way, 489 00:29:44,081 --> 00:29:47,621 there's some we haven't even mentioned already, not to mention our CFP, which 490 00:29:47,621 --> 00:29:49,121 is I think, closing in a few days. 491 00:29:49,491 --> 00:29:54,290 I don't know how we're gonna fit it all in, but certainly, I will be just one 492 00:29:54,700 --> 00:29:59,283 voice among many, but I hope to again, at least be a, a chance to plant that seed 493 00:29:59,283 --> 00:30:03,543 for those that want to go a little deeper in some of the idealistic, aspirational, 494 00:30:03,683 --> 00:30:05,843 kind of long-term community pieces. 495 00:30:06,166 --> 00:30:06,616 Yeah. 496 00:30:06,616 --> 00:30:09,967 And just to go through the list that we have of like speakers 497 00:30:09,967 --> 00:30:11,517 that are already announced. 498 00:30:11,828 --> 00:30:16,620 we also have Tanner Linsley who I think, Electric actually has been 499 00:30:16,620 --> 00:30:19,110 collaborating with more closely lately. 500 00:30:19,410 --> 00:30:23,070 So at Electric we've been working with Tanner and the TanStack team on 501 00:30:23,070 --> 00:30:27,670 TanStack db, which is a new reactive client store built into TanStack 502 00:30:27,690 --> 00:30:29,790 for building applications on sync. 503 00:30:30,296 --> 00:30:34,676 so TanStack is a popular framework for building web and mobile apps, 504 00:30:34,676 --> 00:30:37,556 and it's evolved out of React Query. 505 00:30:37,556 --> 00:30:39,416 Originally a kind of layer for. 506 00:30:39,575 --> 00:30:42,245 doing some of the sort of shared boilerplates around query based 507 00:30:42,245 --> 00:30:46,165 apps, talking to APIs where you have query caching and validation 508 00:30:46,595 --> 00:30:48,605 and then mutation primitives. 509 00:30:48,637 --> 00:30:55,425 and Tanner and my co-founder Kyle, have both been kind of thinking about the 510 00:30:55,455 --> 00:31:00,825 developer experience of building on React Query and TanStack for a long while. 511 00:31:01,255 --> 00:31:06,985 And kind of envisaging a more local-first approach with a more comprehensive, 512 00:31:07,315 --> 00:31:12,835 transactional, optimistic mutation APIs as a kind of ideal way of building software. 513 00:31:13,540 --> 00:31:17,290 So I think like, like a lot of Tanner's perspective on this is as somebody 514 00:31:17,290 --> 00:31:21,100 who has great taste around software should be built and has built one of 515 00:31:21,100 --> 00:31:25,130 the best frameworks for doing that, and with TanStack db, the collaboration 516 00:31:25,130 --> 00:31:28,960 has been a sort of way to go, can we build sync into that framework in a 517 00:31:28,960 --> 00:31:33,130 way that still adheres to his sort of quality of developer experience? 518 00:31:33,430 --> 00:31:37,180 And I know that both Kyle and Tanner just we're all very excited about what we've 519 00:31:37,180 --> 00:31:38,830 been able to create with TanStack db. 520 00:31:38,830 --> 00:31:41,710 So I think he's going to be talking through some of the specifics 521 00:31:41,710 --> 00:31:42,595 there around what we've built. 522 00:31:43,000 --> 00:31:47,320 Also just his view generally around how software should be built, ideally 523 00:31:47,590 --> 00:31:48,940 on a sync engine architecture. 524 00:31:49,230 --> 00:31:49,620 Right. 525 00:31:49,620 --> 00:31:49,890 Yeah. 526 00:31:49,890 --> 00:31:51,360 I'm really excited for that. 527 00:31:51,440 --> 00:31:56,820 I mean, I had the honor to have Tanner on the podcast a little while ago where we 528 00:31:56,820 --> 00:32:02,380 talked about TanStack DB in more depth, and I think Tanner is really like, for 529 00:32:02,540 --> 00:32:08,030 me, representative of the target audience that I envision for the conference. 530 00:32:08,030 --> 00:32:15,253 Like the pragmatists with taste and the aspiration for building high quality 531 00:32:15,253 --> 00:32:20,908 products and doing so in a way unlike me how I'm building Overtone, which 532 00:32:20,908 --> 00:32:26,295 still hasn't shipped, but I'm trying to like get out the last bit of quality. 533 00:32:26,505 --> 00:32:32,000 And for me, it's about the journey as well, but I think TanStack as a ecosystem 534 00:32:32,180 --> 00:32:36,530 that's for pragmatists, that's for people who wanna ship, not tomorrow, but today. 535 00:32:36,800 --> 00:32:41,230 And I'm really looking forward to like seeing how we gonna 536 00:32:41,230 --> 00:32:42,490 get the best of both worlds. 537 00:32:42,490 --> 00:32:44,080 That's like pragmatic software. 538 00:32:44,215 --> 00:32:48,242 With a new approach of sync engine, so really excited for Tanner's 539 00:32:48,242 --> 00:32:49,622 contribution there as well. 540 00:32:50,059 --> 00:32:53,929 we also have a slightly different perspective, probably less from 541 00:32:53,929 --> 00:32:56,619 a practitioner's take here. 542 00:32:56,930 --> 00:33:01,785 we have Martin Casado from Andreessen Horowitz, who's in the past been 543 00:33:01,785 --> 00:33:06,945 like absolutely pivotal for many layers of the stack in like from 544 00:33:06,945 --> 00:33:08,415 software defined networking. 545 00:33:08,759 --> 00:33:12,295 these days he's a VC at Andreesen Horowitz, where he has a pretty 546 00:33:12,295 --> 00:33:16,465 good perspective on the larger software ecosystem and like 547 00:33:16,465 --> 00:33:18,685 infrastructure tools in particular. 548 00:33:18,895 --> 00:33:24,895 So he has been looking at sync engines for quite a while and that broader space. 549 00:33:24,925 --> 00:33:29,125 And so you're gonna also hear his take on that ecosystem, which 550 00:33:29,125 --> 00:33:30,565 I'm really excited about as well. 551 00:33:31,069 --> 00:33:34,504 At Local-First Conf, we always try to make sure we represent at least a little bit 552 00:33:34,504 --> 00:33:38,274 the business side, whether it's bringing up companies who have been successful 553 00:33:38,274 --> 00:33:43,420 at this, like Ditto or someone who can speak about the, essentially the different 554 00:33:43,420 --> 00:33:44,890 business models and monetization. 555 00:33:44,890 --> 00:33:47,620 'cause that's definitely one of the biggest questions people have is that 556 00:33:48,230 --> 00:33:53,360 SaaS and cloud and kind of data hoarding you might call it, has been such an 557 00:33:53,360 --> 00:33:56,970 incredible business model in the last decade or so, and it's just really 558 00:33:56,970 --> 00:33:58,380 clear how you make money from that. 559 00:33:58,651 --> 00:34:02,707 but people have more maybe concerns or reservations about Local-First. 560 00:34:02,707 --> 00:34:05,467 I think in the end, actually the business model looks pretty similar to SaaS. 561 00:34:05,652 --> 00:34:06,462 Realistically. 562 00:34:06,555 --> 00:34:10,425 but like, so having someone come in who can come at it from a hardnosed 563 00:34:10,425 --> 00:34:13,845 investor perspective, again, they're less, in this case, they're less 564 00:34:13,845 --> 00:34:17,535 motivated by, I want a better developer experience or by any kind of idealism, 565 00:34:17,715 --> 00:34:21,915 but more just thinking where is a good place to make money, where successful, 566 00:34:21,945 --> 00:34:25,590 the next generation of successful software business is gonna be built. 567 00:34:25,889 --> 00:34:31,030 Yeah, so there will be more talks, but I don't think they're yet announced. 568 00:34:31,030 --> 00:34:35,540 And there's still an open CFP as well, which may be this your last 569 00:34:35,540 --> 00:34:40,240 chance to try to speak at the conference by applying, there will 570 00:34:40,240 --> 00:34:42,250 be a selection committee, et cetera. 571 00:34:42,539 --> 00:34:45,673 we already got way more submissions than we have space for. 572 00:34:45,933 --> 00:34:50,557 But that being said, please take your chance to apply as I think 573 00:34:50,557 --> 00:34:54,337 there is a quite an interesting range of different topics that should 574 00:34:54,337 --> 00:34:56,467 be represented at the conference. 575 00:34:56,797 --> 00:35:00,851 So, there's more to talk about, but that's probably at a separate time. 576 00:35:01,061 --> 00:35:02,141 So maybe. 577 00:35:02,393 --> 00:35:03,263 rounding out. 578 00:35:03,458 --> 00:35:07,038 there's still some tickets available to my knowledge. 579 00:35:07,398 --> 00:35:11,761 so for people interested coming to the conference, check out the conference 580 00:35:11,761 --> 00:35:17,854 website on syncconf.dev, where I think the early bird tickets are already sold out. 581 00:35:18,214 --> 00:35:22,674 But they're still the normal bird and late bird, and they're, I think they're, the 582 00:35:22,674 --> 00:35:28,014 birds are flying out pretty quickly, so you should get your chance to pick yours. 583 00:35:28,398 --> 00:35:33,804 and yeah, with that, maybe some last words from James and Adam on 584 00:35:33,804 --> 00:35:34,619 what you're looking forward most. 585 00:35:35,251 --> 00:35:38,191 Yeah, I'll just add onto the call to action there to say, you know, not 586 00:35:38,191 --> 00:35:41,651 just submit your talk if you want, or buy a ticket if you want to come. 587 00:35:41,971 --> 00:35:45,571 But also, if you know someone that, again, is kind of in that demographic 588 00:35:45,571 --> 00:35:49,631 of local-first curious, but has never really taken the plunge you wanna 589 00:35:49,661 --> 00:35:53,677 invite them, you know, maybe this is the right opportunity for them to come 590 00:35:53,677 --> 00:35:55,891 into this world we all love so much. 591 00:35:56,481 --> 00:35:59,211 and I'll also note that I think we're almost full on sponsors, but 592 00:35:59,211 --> 00:36:01,431 we maybe have one more space left. 593 00:36:01,431 --> 00:36:04,311 So if you wanna do that, that's a possibility as well. 594 00:36:04,311 --> 00:36:05,301 You can just email us. 595 00:36:05,731 --> 00:36:09,691 yeah, and as for your question of, yeah, what am I looking forward to 596 00:36:09,691 --> 00:36:10,891 most, that's, that's really tough. 597 00:36:10,891 --> 00:36:14,221 I'll tell you what I'm not looking forward to is that Johannes, typically 598 00:36:14,221 --> 00:36:18,541 you and I have done the blocking out of the schedule and figuring out the time 599 00:36:18,541 --> 00:36:22,381 slots and the breaks and all that stuff and all of these great speakers and 600 00:36:22,381 --> 00:36:26,341 cramming all of this into one day in a way that also leaves room for hallway 601 00:36:26,341 --> 00:36:29,791 track and, you know, breathing space to think about what you've just learned. 602 00:36:30,091 --> 00:36:32,431 That is a challenge I am not looking forward to. 603 00:36:33,001 --> 00:36:38,614 But once we once we conquer that little milestone, I'll be very much looking 604 00:36:38,614 --> 00:36:42,154 forward to attending and I think just like a local-first comp being there. 605 00:36:42,404 --> 00:36:46,874 Not only hearing the talks, but the ideas that are provoked from that 606 00:36:46,874 --> 00:36:50,474 and hearing what people are building and how the talks kind of change 607 00:36:50,474 --> 00:36:54,454 or inspire their, change, their perspective or inspire them on that. 608 00:36:54,454 --> 00:36:57,884 I just have learned so much at our conferences these last two 609 00:36:57,884 --> 00:36:59,354 years, and I feel like this one. 610 00:36:59,634 --> 00:37:03,521 That is in a new place with a slightly different type of person is also gonna 611 00:37:03,521 --> 00:37:08,669 be a similar kind of, you know, mind blow emoji, expand the perspective new, 612 00:37:08,699 --> 00:37:10,389 new way to think about this space. 613 00:37:10,389 --> 00:37:13,989 That even though I've been thinking about it for over a decade somehow, 614 00:37:14,019 --> 00:37:16,239 I always feel like I learned something new at these conferences. 615 00:37:16,719 --> 00:37:20,599 I think you kinda looking at a space like this, you get a sense of just the 616 00:37:20,599 --> 00:37:23,229 kind of timing of the ideas emerging. 617 00:37:23,229 --> 00:37:28,389 And certainly from my perspective, I just see people both talking 618 00:37:28,389 --> 00:37:30,699 about sync more on social media. 619 00:37:30,969 --> 00:37:34,389 I see a lot of predictions that this is the key technology for the next 620 00:37:34,389 --> 00:37:39,639 years or more, and I suspect like this is a one day conference, right? 621 00:37:39,639 --> 00:37:41,499 It's a kind of maximum 300 people. 622 00:37:41,919 --> 00:37:45,279 And my hope, and what I kind of think is that we'll look back on it in 623 00:37:45,279 --> 00:37:48,549 10 years time and see this as just one of the seminal conferences that 624 00:37:48,789 --> 00:37:52,989 actually the group of people who were there all then went on to do amazing 625 00:37:52,989 --> 00:37:55,629 things and you kind of look back and it was a privilege to be there. 626 00:37:55,884 --> 00:37:58,614 So I think that's the kind of event that we're trying to create. 627 00:37:59,001 --> 00:38:01,911 and it kind of just feels like the timing is right there. 628 00:38:02,121 --> 00:38:05,811 It's such an exciting time in software development and I think that this is 629 00:38:05,811 --> 00:38:09,081 just gonna be one of the most, sort of special occasions to be at that 630 00:38:09,081 --> 00:38:11,211 we'll look back on fondly in time. 631 00:38:12,611 --> 00:38:13,611 I couldn't agree more. 632 00:38:14,641 --> 00:38:20,721 Did we actually say actually when it is November 12th, 2025 in San Francisco 633 00:38:22,011 --> 00:38:24,111 and the website is syncconf.dev. 634 00:38:24,801 --> 00:38:25,491 That's great. 635 00:38:25,941 --> 00:38:26,481 Awesome. 636 00:38:26,511 --> 00:38:31,701 Well, thank you so much for coming on the show to discuss this, and I'm looking 637 00:38:31,701 --> 00:38:37,069 forward to seeing the two of you at the conference in November in San Francisco. 638 00:38:37,119 --> 00:38:42,261 But I also hope to see many of our listeners at the conference. 639 00:38:42,811 --> 00:38:44,371 Can't wait to reconnect with this community. 640 00:38:45,541 --> 00:38:45,991 Awesome. 641 00:38:46,171 --> 00:38:46,531 All right. 642 00:38:46,531 --> 00:38:46,741 See you. 643 00:38:46,816 --> 00:38:47,036 See 644 00:38:47,036 --> 00:38:47,126 you then. 645 00:38:48,203 --> 00:38:50,783 Thank you for listening to the localfirst.fm podcast. 646 00:38:50,963 --> 00:38:54,053 If you've enjoyed this episode and haven't done so already, please 647 00:38:54,053 --> 00:38:55,343 subscribe and leave a review. 648 00:38:55,733 --> 00:38:58,253 Please also share this episode with your friends and colleagues. 649 00:38:58,643 --> 00:39:01,643 Spreading the word about the podcast is a great way to support 650 00:39:01,643 --> 00:39:03,353 it and to help me keep it going. 651 00:39:04,013 --> 00:39:07,433 A special thanks again to Jazz for supporting this podcast. 652 00:39:07,733 --> 00:39:08,693 I'll see you next time.